* Multiple Citations One Source

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Triplog
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Multiple Citations One Source

Post by Triplog »

Hello - I'm fairly new to FH and trying to get my head around Sources and Citations. I thought I understood but obviously don't so forgive a simple question (I searched but couldn't find anything on this specifically).
I have a Headstone with two names as a single source. I thought I could produce two separate Citations, one for each name giving name and date of death, from that one source. When I create the second citation it changes the first to be the same as the second (so the two Citations are identical). Any tutorials I look at seem to infer I should be able to produce two different Citations. I'm on version 7, can someone please show me where I'm going wrong?
Citation R Logan.JPG
Citation R Logan.JPG (76.62 KiB) Viewed 4919 times
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redvanman
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by redvanman »

You're not the first to find this aspect of FH7 tricky. Have you looked at Sources and Citations in Version 7 (for New Users) in the Knowledge Base, where you will find comprehensive guidance?

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LornaCraig
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by LornaCraig »

It's the "Citation-specific Details" which need to contain the different details. By default your Main tab is showing only the fields for Assessment level and citation Note (although it can be customised to show more). If you look at the Text from Source tab you will find there are options to add the text from the (whole) Source and also text relevant to the particular citation. So you can record the particular text showing name and dates (and anything else, such as "wife of the above") in the citation for each person. You can also use the citation Note field to say that this person's name appears on the same headstone as the other person.
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Triplog
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by Triplog »

Thanks for the replies - Redvanman - yes I've read the help file for V7 new users. That's what made me believe I could generate multiple different citations referring to one source but I'm obviously going astray somewhere.
LornaCraig I haven't looked at modifying anything from the default yet but can't see the fields I would need. In this particular case it would simply be the relevant Name and Date of Death.
I'll keep on reading and playing round with the sample database and see if I can stumble across the answer!
Thanks again
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

The link redvanman posted wasn't to the help file, but to an article in our (the user group's) knowledge base.
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Triplog
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by Triplog »

Thanks ColeValleyGiry - I realise that - I should be more accurate in my naming!
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

As Lorna said, the upper part of your screenshot shows the details in the one and only Source Record [133].
If you change any of those fields you are changing that solitary Source Record.
The lower part of your screenshot shows the Citation-specific Details that can be different for each Citation.
For example, select the fact for Rebecca Logan and enter her Name and Date of Death in the Note box.
Now select the fact for Walter Brown Logan and enter his Name and Date of Death in the Note box.
You can switch between those two fact Citations and see the two alternative Note entries.

What you must decide is which Citation-specific fields you wish to use to record that information instead of the Note field.
The options are Where Within Source, Text From Source, and Note.
When you have decided then let us know so we can advise how to use your chosen field.

However, having said all that I wonder if any of it is necessary in this case.
Presumably, those Citations are against the Death &/or Burial events for the two people.
So the events already identify who and the date, so why are they needed in the Citation details?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Triplog
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by Triplog »

Mike thank you for the reply- yes from the previous replies and reading the Sources and Citations in Version 7 (for New Users) I now understand that. With regard to your last point as to whether the Citation is necessary - in my lack of understanding I assumed that Sources should always have Citations which acted as a link between the Source and the Person (or Fact). I admit that I dip in and out of Family Historian as time permits and I do find the depth and complexity of it a bit overwhelming at times (and frustrating because of that)!

Regards
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

Yes, the Citation is the link between the Source Record and a particular Fact of a Person or Family, etc.
So I guess the Fact is a Death or Burial event that includes the Date of Death or Burial for Rebecca and similarly for Walter.
I imagine the Source Record Title would be 'Gravestone for Rebecca & Walter Brown Logan'.
So what is there to add to the Citations?
The Death or Burial fact identifies the person and the date while the Source Record provides all the other details.

My final question earlier was "Why is identifying who and the date needed in the Citation details?"
Not whether the Citation link is needed as that link is essential.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Ian, yes, you should always cite one or more sources for a fact, but you don't have to include the citation fields unless they add value. If all the information is already in the Source, you may wish to leave them blank -- or you may want to add a note about that specific citation -- (e.g. Auntie Mabel had been at the wacky baccie before the oral interview in question and had brought out all her aged axes to grind; she always loathed her brother-in-law) or a Quality Assessment (e.g. Questionable). You would of course probably enclose that Note in [[privacy markers]].

If you use Method 2 ('lumping') you'd include more detail in the citation -- for example BMD indices tend to have a single source and the citation details identify the name of the person, date and reference within the index.
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by Triplog »

ColeValleyGirl - you just made me laugh out loud!!! Thank you that makes sense. I plunged into this at the start and input details in a rather "disorganised" way. As I discover more about my ancestors I'm now trying to be more consistent and do things "properly" so I may be guilty of overkill where it's not required (as Tatewise has pointed out in a gracious way). I've played about with the Citation layout and understand a little more how it works.

Thank you everyone
Ian
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by KFN »

For me the difference between Source and Citation is viewed simply as:

A Book/Manuscript/Letter/Census Year/Grave Marker are sources.

A page/paragraph(for books, manuscripts, letters), Census recording detail, specific name where multiple names exist on a marker are all Citations.

Obviously this is simplified to some extent, but I try to look at how a report or query would print information and try to keep like stuff together.

I have a lot of relatives that share the same grave stone, in Norway a single plot can be used several times and I’ve seen in the USA where they allow multiple cremations together. Also I consider a Columbarium as a Source, and the individual niche a Citation, in particular so I can distinguish images of a source (the marker or Columbarium) from the cited grave or niche image and data.
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

It depends on whether you are a 'splitter' or a 'lumper' or both as explained in Citing Sources: Method 1 and Method 2.
There is no entirely right or wrong way and different products favour different methods.
The key is to be consistent and ensure that the Reports produced are presented the way you want them.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by geoffmackay »

As a new user, I'm also still trying to come to grips with sources and citations. My present dilemma is how to record and document residence and occupation facts gleaned from parish registers.

I'm using the register for a single parish as a Method 2 source, then giving further details in "Text from Source" for each citation. This works fine for the main facts - christenings, marriages and burials. But, for example, where the family had numerous children christened, and the place of residence and father's occupation are also shown, this could give rise to multiple residence facts for each person in that family. I'd prefer to just show a single residence fact (unless they moved) with a range of dates, and the source as the parish register. But how then to word the citation? I could copy the text for every christening event into the "Text from Source" field, or into a citation note, but this seems very labour-intensive.

I imagine I'll have a similar problem when I get around to cleaning up my Census sources and citations. I would be interested to know how others deal with this.
Geoff Mackay - Researching the Mackay, Cohn, Schwieger, Gillies, Hammon, Trickey, Hopper and Rowbotham families
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by LornaCraig »

I think I would use a date range for the citation and use the the citation note field to record the fact that the same occupation/address was recorded in each of the following, then list the names and dates of the various christenings (but not the full text from source). As you already have a separate citation for each christening it would be easy to check the text from source there if you needed to.
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

What you are discovering is one of the drawbacks of Method 2 lumped Sources.
This is the dilemma of what to put in each local Citation.

An easy way to identify all Facts derived from the same source details is for them all to have identical Citations.
Otherwise, it isn't easy to use FH tools to find those associated Facts and if necessary update all the identical Citations.
One technique is to use the Copy Citation button in the original Christening Source Citation pane, and then Paste Citation into the Source Citation pane of each other Fact.
Another way to achieve the same effect is to use the Automatic Source Citations tool so that the same Citations get automatically added as you add or edit each Fact, including the original Christening event.

If the identical Citations technique is unsuitable then you must create your own cross-referencing as suggested by Lorna.
So think about how you would use FH tools such as Queries to list all Facts derived from the same Christening source.
There must be the same key words or phrases in the same field in all the Citations including the Christening citation.
However, that may be a laborious and error-prone task.

It may be too late now, but in my opinion, this is the kind of scenario that Method 1 splitter Sources handle much better.
All the Text From Source and other details are all in the one Source record and each Fact has a very simple Citation that just links to the Source record. Duplication of Text From Source and Where Within Source in the multiple Citations is avoided.
Yes, there are many Source records but the multiple Citations are much simpler and FH is good at handling large numbers of items.

Method 2 lumped Sources are more suited to only needing one unique Citation for each document such as BMD Index.
BTW: There is a plugin that can convert Method 2 to Method 1 sources.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by geoffmackay »

Thanks Lorna and Mike.

The main purpose of my post was to find out what other more experienced users do in this situation, of having (say) the same residence information that's shown in multiple entries in the parish register - ie. whether to have one or many facts showing the same information. So Lorna's reply indicates that it's acceptable practice to have just one.

I should clarify that this is my first encounter with parish registers, and I'm starting with just one parish - Great Gidding, Huntingdonshire. I have a pdf document that contains transcriptions from the register, with just one line for each entry. Here's a sample:

3 Nov 1816 Martha d/o Samuel & Jemima Hopper GG glover
18 Nov 1816 John and William sons/o Richard & Elizabeth Abbot
21 Apr 1817 Samuel s/o Charles & Sarah Hopper GG glover
24 Aug 1817 Elizabeth d/o Strickson & Martha Crawley GG farmer
16 Oct 1817 Sarah d/o Harris & Frances Crawley GG labourer
10 Jun 1818 Elizabeth illeg dau of Mary Crawley, GG servant
12 Nov 1818 William and John sons of Richard & Eliz. Abbott GG tailor

If I obtain similar transcribed registers for other parishes I'll create separate sources for each, which seems to be the approach taken for parish records in the FH sample project. In reponse to Mike's comments, I have been trying to use Method 1 for other types of sources, but it seemed that in this case, doing so would entail creating a source for every line that I use, with no meaningful way of specifying "Where within source". Hence my decision to use Method 2. I'd also end up with hundreds of links to the one media file if I used Method 1. Having said that, he's raised some points that I hadn't considered. I can certainly see that having multiple sources for a fact is preferable to a multi-line note for each citation. I'll give it some more thought, and might use that plug-in somewhere down the track.
Geoff Mackay - Researching the Mackay, Cohn, Schwieger, Gillies, Hammon, Trickey, Hopper and Rowbotham families
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

The Parish Register entries that I find on FindMyPast are scanned images of pages from the register.
Each page has a few entries, often with some sort of reference number as well as the date.
The entries often have more details than your PDF example, which would appear to be some sort of transcript.
So in my experience, the Media image would be a Detail Frame of one scanned page from the original register.
You may want to consider a Source strategy that works for all formats of Parish Register you might discover.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by LornaCraig »

As you have a single PDF file as your source I think your decision to use a Method 2/Lumper source in this case is sensible, as you have only one media file which can be linked to the source record itself. This is similar to using an online database of transcriptions (for example from FamilySearch, Ancestry or FindmyPast) without saving, or in some cases having access to, the corresponding image of the page. Many people use Method 2 sources for such databases, without any image linked to either the soure or the citation, and put the fine details in the citations.

However, at some point you will probably start collecting images of individual pages from parish registers. When that happens you will find it easier to create a separate Method1/Splitter source for each image, so that the image can still be linked directly to the source record rather than to the citation. And that is when you can start citing multiple sources for a single residence fact, when the residence fact has a date range.
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by davidf »

Time for a source lumper to put his oar in!

It sounds as if you are working with a particular parish register. If this is the physical document (or complete separate microfilm of it - such as you might find at a country record office or an LDS centre), I would be very tempted to treat that artefact as your "source" (the repository being the record office). (If on the other hand you are looking at an online collection say "Huntingdonshire Baptisms", I would make that collection my source.

Notes attached to the source then detail the research you have done with that source
You might have a log: "2021-09-25 Searched visually for all 'Mackay' births 1790-1841"
You might (optionally) have an index to the pages on which you find entries of interest - similar to your partial transcription - which you can update each time you return to the register to do more research
You might have a note such as "If the microfilm image is blurred, speak to Michael and if he is not too busy he may get the actual register out of the strong room for you"
If the source is an online collection, you may want a note about any idiosyncrasies in the way it has been arranged or to record for instance where within the collection (in terms of image number) the Great Gidding baptism register starts
All these sort of things are specific to the artefact and are not easy to record if you are a splitter because the artefact does not have a single identity.

The citations are then detailing links between specific facts and specific entries in your source.

What you put in the citation is very specific on how you use FH, but as a minimum the citation has to point you unambiguously to the specific entry - so a page number in the "Where within source" field may be sufficient. But you may also want to put the details of the specific register entry in the "Text from Source". The Citation notes are also useful for recording things like how you are certain that you have the right person (for instance the baptism date may be more than a year or so after the birth date that you have found or derived from other sources).

Some like FH to do all the work for them such that you can almost press a button and get reports and books etc produced. My experience is that you get a better result writing the books or reports yourself using FH as your personal reference. You can then write in a sentence like "The Great Gidding parish register seems to indicate that the family lived in Great Gidding from before the baptism of Ann in 1798 through to some time after the baptism of Zoe in 1815". You may then add a footnote to indicate that you referred to the actual register at the Huntingdonshire Record Office (and give page references if you think your audience requires that level of information).

However if you want the automated effect you need to experiment to find out how you want your sourcing and referencing to appear - and that may determine how you fill in your citations - and may influence your attitude to for instance having multiple residence facts. (FH at least at 6.2.7 does not like a date like "between before 1798 and after 1815" - "between ... and ..." unlike "from ... to ..." is not meant to exclude the possibility of the fact existing outside the date range, but if often reads as if it does.)

Given that I do not publish direct from FH, I can adopt my own practices. Some may think them idiosyncratic, but they work for me - as long as I am consistent (but that is true of most working practices).

So I might have Ann's baptism in 1798 entered as a fact for her with the Great Gidding Parish Register as the Source, a page number in the "Where within source" field, my transcript of the specific entry in the "Text from source" field and anything else that might be relevant in the (citation) Notes field. I then attach the page image as "Citation Media" (click on the image icon in the Source Citation area and select the first option). Attaching media directly to the fact seems to me to be potentially misleading if you have multiple source/citations supporting that fact (you lose sight of which source the image is from).

All other information gleaned from Ann's baptism is "incidental" or indirect (I'm trying not to say "secondary") but could include the names of the parents, abode, profession etc. Where I derive this information from Ann's baptism, I add the fact to the relevant person and source it to a general lumped source "Cross-reference to Baptism Record" and in the "Where within source" field I say "Bap of dau Ann 1798 - per register". That citation I can then copy through to other facts relevant to the parents.

That works for me; what works for you very much depends on what you are trying to achieve and how you want FH to help you achieve those objectives.
David
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LornaCraig
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by LornaCraig »

davidf wrote: 26 Sep 2021 12:29 It sounds as if you are working with a particular parish register. If this is the physical document (or complete separate microfilm of it - such as you might find at a country record office or an LDS centre), I would be very tempted to treat that artefact as your "source"...
David, Geoff has already told us that he is using "a pdf document that contains transcriptions from the register, with just one line for each entry" so that is his source.

He also made it clear that "The main purpose of my post was to find out what other more experienced users do in this situation, of having (say) the same residence information that's shown in multiple entries in the parish register - ie. whether to have one or many facts showing the same information." We have answered that by showing that it's OK to have a single residence fact with a date range, and have explained how to cite either a single lumped source or multiple split sources for that residence fact.

While your detailed description of how you handle parish registers may well be of interest to him, it's straying a long way from his question!
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by geoffmackay »

Thank you all for these responses. The generosity of experienced users in providing guidance to us novices here on the forum is much appreciated, and indeed was one of the things that attracted me to FH in the first place.

I'm going with Lorna's approach for transcribed parish register information, but once I get around to using images of original parish registers I'll definitely be adopting Method 1. Being relatively new to all of this, I haven't subscribed yet to FMP or any other online genealogy sites. I was referred to the Great Gidding transcripts by a relative.

David, I'm very grateful for your thoughtful advice. As I said earlier, I'm using Method 1 for most sources, the present case and BMD indexes being exceptions, and am going to stick with that. But you have given me some food for thought regarding research (not doing any at present, as I am trying to clean up records imported recently from Brother's Keeper, and learning FH at the same time), citations (a lot of what you write also applies to splitting, I would imagine) and reporting (which is still sometime in the future for me).
Geoff Mackay - Researching the Mackay, Cohn, Schwieger, Gillies, Hammon, Trickey, Hopper and Rowbotham families
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by tatewise »

Geoff, it would be wise to bump reporting (and diagrams) up your checklist.
How you enter your data can often directly impact the report and diagram features.
For example, some users make extensive use of Narrative Reports that are highly dependent on Sentence templates.
However, if they are of no interest, then you can ignore Sentence templates.
Many reports include a Source Citations section that is governed by how you enter Source Citations.
Various other report types are also available, and there is a variety of diagram types.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Multiple Citations One Source

Post by geoffmackay »

Thank you Mike. Yes, I'll do that. The learning curve just go a little steeper!
Geoff Mackay - Researching the Mackay, Cohn, Schwieger, Gillies, Hammon, Trickey, Hopper and Rowbotham families
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