Family Historian User Group

Just trying to get my head around the basics of v7 and one oddity strikes me.

Before I get used to doing it "the wrong way" (in my head) - can anyone tell me if there is an option to create a new (generic or templated) source without starting to create a Citation to it?

The Add menu option is Add - Source/Citation - Create Generic Source/Prepare Citation. But, I don't want to create a Citation yet! There are numerous instances where I create a Source way before I create a Citation to it - e.g. I might not have settled on the facts that I want to create.

The only (almost - see below) way that I have found to create a Source without a Citation is to go through to the Prepared Citation form and just fill in the Source Record details, leaving the Prepared Citation Details section blank. This feels weird and unnerving and I don't want to get used to it if I'm missing something right in front of my face.

The only New-Source-only option that I've found is in a right click on the Sources pane of the Records Window where - providing you're in column 2 or further right, you get a New Source option. I'm not convinced that should still be there since you only get a New Generic Source - no Templated Source choice.

So - am I missing an option?

You're not missing anything, Adrian. I think of that button (or the Add menu route) as "Create Source and optionally Create/Prepare Citation", not "Create Source AND Create Citation".

But... you aren't actually creating a citation if you fill in those fields. You're 'preparing it' for use. You don't actually use it until you use a DEA, copy/paste the citation, use ASC, ... And the next Source you create will overwrite that prepared citation (there can only be one).

The other option which you haven't mentioned is the Add Citation button in the Sources panel of the Property Box, but that's even worse for your purposes because it actually creates the citation.

I couldn't find any other method when writing https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/worki ... -heading-6

My 0.02FWIW - new sources for the Project I’m working on at the moment are mostly of the traditional census, civil registration and parish register variety. I create them exactly as I did in FH6, a 1-click clone of a similar source using a custom version of the Clone Any Record plugin on the Tools menu. I then update the details for the new version, and change the attached media record.

It works particularly well if the two sources are related, such as a later census entry for the same family or a sibling marriage, as much of the text will be common. Once I’ve prepared the source, I move on to creating facts and citations. That’s just as much “Source-driven data entry” as using AS or DEAs.

FH6 methods don’t suddenly become “wrong” in FH7. There’s an extra option that’s worth looking at if you anticipate reworking your sources, but all the existing methods are still available. To be fair to Helen’s KB piece, it gives a good balanced overview of the various options available.

ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 11:54

You're not missing anything, Adrian. ...

Oh good. I do find it slightly odd, mind.

ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 11:54

... But... you aren't actually creating a citation if you fill in those fields. You're 'preparing it' for use. ...

Yes, that's true. Not sure I could come up with better terminology in the space concerned, though...

Mark1834 wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 12:30

My 0.02FWIW - new sources for the Project I’m working on at the moment are mostly of the traditional census, civil registration and parish register variety. I create them exactly as I did in FH6, a 1-click clone of a similar source using a custom version of the Clone Any Record plugin on the Tools menu. I then update the details for the new version, ...

Actually, that's pretty much how I generally work, except that I just copy and paste - err, into a blank source record, which is now slightly more awkward to get to. Maybe I need to look at the clone commands, thanks...

Mark1834 wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 12:30

... FH6 methods don’t suddenly become “wrong” in FH7. There’s an extra option that’s worth looking at if you anticipate reworking your sources, but all the existing methods are still available. ...

No indeed. It's just the lack of physical access to the New Source menu option that drags. Process and Procedures need not change. Working Instructions do. (I think those were the buzz phrases...)

Mark1834 wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 12:30

... To be fair to Helen’s KB piece, it gives a good balanced overview of the various options available.

Indeed - much thanks to that KB so far.

PS - has Teresa set a new fashion in FWIWs?

AdrianBruce wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 12:49

a blank source record, which is now slightly more awkward to get to.

You can reach blank Source records much as before via the Records Window on the Sources tab.
You can also create new blank (generic) Source records there too.

The yellow Source icon > Create Generic Source Record creates a blank Source record (& prepared Citation).
The yellow Source icon > Prepare Citation to Existing Source lets you choose an existing Source record.
You can open another Source record at the same time and copy & paste fields.

I also use a slightly modified version of the Clone Any Record plugin for virtually all non BBMDB & Census (for which I use AS). This way it ensures I get consistent wording in my sources for things like Probate, Ships Passenger Lists, etc. - items which I don't see "every day" and for which I want to ensure the (old!) memory doesn't fail me when creating a new source. I then use the "Cite" option to link a (new) fact to this source. Probably all pretty much v6, but it works for me and, as I say, ensures consistency of data.

tatewise wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 13:36

... The yellow Source icon > Create Generic Source Record creates a blank Source record (& prepared Citation). ...

Yes - psychologically it throws me because I don't want anything to do with a Citation at that stage.

Given that I've seen at least a couple of people in the Mailing List and / or UG who couldn't work out how to create a Source-record in v7, I can't help but wonder if that "Prepare Citation" bit threw them off as well. It just feels weird to have Source as a fundamental object in FH yet not have a simple Create Source (The Source, The Whole Source and Nothing But The Source) - in a couple of weeks time I might be using that facility and cheerfully ignoring the Prepare Citation bit, but right now, it just feels a bit ... odd.

To give you a bit more insight, the Prepared Citation is actually attached to the Header record, and you can see that in the Records Window if you expand the Header tab.

The new floating Citation window shows both a Source record and a Citation at the same time.
(It may be the Prepared Citation or an actual fact Citation depending on how the Citation window was opened.)
I think it is partly a nod to many other products that don't have the GEDCOM distinction between Source & Citation.
But when they export in GEDCOM format that results in Source & Citation couplets.
The new Citation window shows those couplets far better than previous FH versions.
It also usually avoids the need to switch to the Source record in the Records Window.
Once that new arrangement is grasped it really works quite well.

AdrianBruce wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 14:31

It just feels weird to have Source as a fundamental object in FH yet not have a simple Create Source

Adrian, but there is a simple Create Source, but only in the Records window, as Miketate stated. This does exactly what you want. i.e create a new blank source, with nary a hint of a citation.! Not too bad, when you consider the records window is always available at the click of a button.

The rcords window seems an under-used resource, (at least by me ), but in there, you can add new Individuals, families, Sources, Notes and Places, simply with a right click of the mouse! All it needs is a Copy As New option to be complete, to save us faffing around with cloning!

My only complaint is that you can't add a new place from within the map window itself, which would be more useful. As one could locate it, create it and geocode it at the same time

Gowermick wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:16

there is a simple Create Source, but only in the Records window, as Miketate stated. This does exactly what you want. i.e create a new blank source, with nary a hint of a citation.!

Mike, that option only creates a Generic source, not a templated one.

.... and Adrian already knows about that option. He said:

AdrianBruce wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 11:22

The only New-Source-only option that I've found is in a right click on the Sources pane of the Records Window where - providing you're in column 2 or further right, you get a New Source option. I'm not convinced that should still be there since you only get a New Generic Source - no Templated Source choice.

I really hope CP don't decide it shouldn't be there, because I use that method all the time! I only use generic sources, so for me this is exactly what I used to do in V6, and it cuts out the extra click to choose between a generic source and a templated source.
Ideally I would like to have an option in Preferences where the user could say "only offer me generic sources, anywhere, ever"!

ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:22

that option only creates a Generic source, not a templated one.

That is not strictly true because on the All tab you can add a Source Template and then, hey presto, it's a templated Source!

LornaCraig wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:24

Ideally I would like to have an option in Preferences where the user could say "only offer me generic sources, anywhere, ever"!

Hear! Hear!

When I occasionally go back to FH6 to test a plugin, it’s the FH6 way of displaying sources that feels odd now. You can teach an old dog new tricks - they just take a bit longer to register...

tatewise wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:39

That is not strictly true because on the All tab you can add a Source Template and then, hey presto, it's a templated Source!

True, but it's hardly intuitive to do it that way -- it would be better (quicker and easier to find) to have it as a right-click option.

Thanks folks - and I just tried switching on the Yellow Automatic Source Citations pane - and voila, there is the last Prepared Citation!

And knowing where the Prepared Citation is kept is helpful psychologically, as well, thanks

tatewise wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:39

AdrianBruce wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 11:22

Ideally I would like to have an option in Preferences where the user could say "only offer me generic sources, anywhere, ever"!

Hear! Hear!

Mike, that was me, not Adrian. But I'm glad you agree!!

Sorry, I've corrected the attribution.

ColeValleyGirl wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:22

Gowermick wrote: ↑

26 May 2021 15:16

there is a simple Create Source, but only in the Records window, as Miketate stated. This does exactly what you want. i.e create a new blank source, with nary a hint of a citation.!

Mike, that option only creates a Generic source, not a templated one.

Helen,
my bad. In fact reading Adrians initial post, he already knew that Back to the bottom of the class