Family Historian User Group

On a marriage certificate the fathers of the couple are named. How does one record this? i.e to what facts do I add the citation?

It seems to me there are two facts here for each father
1) his name
2) his relationship (father) to one of the persons being married.

So I want my citation to link my source record (the marriage certificate) to these two facts. I understand how to add the citation to the name. But how do I access the relationship fact and add the citation to that?

I have read the KB article 'Recording Credibility of Family Relationships', but I did not understand it, and I notice that it has not been updated to Fh7.

Please accept that I am new to genealogy (2 weeks), and am still in the trial period for Fh7, so I apologise if this is a dumb question. Thank you.

It isn't a dumb question - it's surprisingly complicated if and when you sort through the possibilities. That's not to mention do you want to see the citation / assessment / whatever in various places?

Just to consider the complexity - I knew that my 3G-GF was John Cooper and (from his marriage) that his father was William Cooper. If I just cite the marriage source against William's name - does that help? Not really, it's easy enough to find that his name was William - the real crux of the matter is - which William? There were 3 in the area...

The simplest way to do this is to write some sort of a statement out where you list your logic, list the sources that you've used, list the possibilities and then come to a conclusion - saying why.

I find that this is best done as a Note Record that can be linked to both parent (possibly both parents) and child. This can be referred to as a Proof Statement, a phrase guaranteed to chill.... But remember - the prime audience is you!

For the simpler investigations, I tend not to bother with doing anything more than citing the baptism (say) against both the child and the parent (probably against their name). That's always seemed to work for me when I go back to check a pairing.

That's a very high level suggestion but it is the basic skeleton of what I do.

The KB article describes various techniques that are very specific and precise. I prefer the flexibility of a Note Record because anything can go in there.

Welcome to the FHUG Jeremy.

Being new to genealogy and Family Historian means you have a steep learning curve.
The Recording Credibility of Family Relationships article is quite technical in parts and aimed more at where the credibility is in doubt.

I think most FH users set the Citation against the Father's <whole record> possibly with a Note that it identifies the Father-Child relationship.

Jeremy - Mike's comments about the learning curve prompt me to add that no-one but no-one ever gets their processes right first time. So don't be afraid to try something and look back at it later and say, "Why did I make such a meal of it?" - or the opposite, "How and why on earth did I decide that? Shouldn't I have written a bit more explanation - err, somewhere...?"

Try a bit, run off some reports and diagrams, see if they help, and then go back if you want to and alter things.

Thank you Adrian and Mike for your replies. They were helpful and encouraging.

Yes Notes is the way I will go. I had wondered wondered if it would be possible to use a citation to link a source record to a relationship, but it seems not. Or whether there might be an additional Fact type of Relationship for an individual (alongide Event and Attribute).

I am encoured by your comments that it is complicated, that the prime audience is me, and that no one gets their processes right first time. I am the type of person who likes to get it right first time, and this can stop me actually getting going and learning!

Thank you again.

Another option that has not been mentioned is Fact Witnesses.
The Marriage event already has Fact Witness Roles for Witness, Best man, Bridesmaid, Minister, etc.
It is feasible to add the Roles of Groom's Father and Bride's Father with links to those father's Individual records.
Those Roles can have their own dedicated Source Citations to the Marriage Certificate with appropriate Notes.

Mike,

Thank you for this suggestion.

I can see that the Witness feature might be a way to record the evidence of the relationship, but I do not want to go down that route in this case as both the fathers, although named on the marriage certificate, were not witnesses at the wedding as they were deceased!

Jeremy, there may be several ways of doing what you require. I can only tell you what I do. It works for me, but whether it is right or wrong, and whether you choose to follow or choose another path is your decision.

The way I see it, you have a source (marriage certificate) which shows the names of the bride and groom, together with the names of the fathers of each. If you did not previously know the identities of the fathers, enter them as new individuals in FH as the appropriate parent of either the bride or groom. Just as the marriage certificate is the source to "prove" the marriage between the couple, it is also a source document which proves or lends support to the identity of their fathers. So as well as citing the marriage certificate to prove the marriage fact, I cite it as a source for the name of the groom's father against the name entered in FH, and again for the name of the bride's father.

The fact that the father of each individual is named as such in the marriage certificate is surely evidence of the relationship between the father and his son or daughter, so I evidence it by citing that document. Whether citing that document alone is sufficient to prove the relationship between father and child is for you to decide, but once you have those names you can normally find additional evidence to support (or possibly bring into question) the relationship in the form of census documents, baptisms and birth certificates etc., which add further weight to proving or disproving the relationship and can also be cited against the individuals accordingly.

In other words, there is no "relationship fact" as such to create a specific relationship between two individuals. You create the relationship by associating those individuals as being related to one another (by linking them as father and son or whatever relationship exists between them) in FH on the basis of the evidence available to you, and the proof of that relationship is whatever evidence (sources) you have that show (prove, add weight or lend credibility to) the relationship, each of which should stand alone as evidence of the relationship and can be cited against the individuals accordingly.

If there is doubt about the relationship and the true identity of the parties involved, then you can create a note to that effect within the record, or with the new Research Notes in FH7, create a research note linked to the individuals concerned explaining why you have doubts and logging the additional research you have or intend to carry out to either prove or disprove the assertion.

I hope that makes sense.

Yes it does make sense. Thank you! You have described the situation exactly, and I appreciate your explanation.

I appreciate too the advice in your first sentence - to find a way that works for me. The place I am coming from is one that I picked up from a forum (not sure if it was this one) where a contributor said that they aimed to extract and record every single piece of information from each source. So when I saw the marriage certificate naming the fathers of the couple I wondered how record this information and started looking for a father-child relationship to link the citation to.

It seems that there is no direct way to do this in FH7. I accept this - all pieces of software have their constraints. The way to go is to use the work-arounds provided by the Notes or Witness functionalities, as you and others have proposed.

You say that "there is no 'relationship fact' as such to create a specific relationship between two individuals". I accept that in FH7 there is not. But in life there are relationship facts: DNA testing will establish them, and documents such as the one I have described will refer to them. In FH7 it seems that relationship facts are implied by the structure of the family tree, and can be accessed by the Relationship Function, but these are implicit and there is not way to link a citation directly to them.

I feel that I am becoming pedantic! Thank you again for your time and attention.

There may not be family relationship facts in the way that there are Birth, Marriage & Death facts.
However, there are standard GEDCOM/FH family relationship links for parent-child and spouse-spouse relationships.
Those links can have a local Note and the Note can have a Source Citation.
That is described in the Recording Credibility of Family Relationships article.

The links can be found on the All tab of the Property Box as Parents family and Spouse family.
Right-click on them and Add Note, then right-click on the Note and Add Source and choose Marrriage Certificate Source.
That then appears in the Sources For: list as Family as Child Note* with the Source Citation.
The Note %INDI.FAMC.NOTE2% can be added to the Main tab so its Source Citation is immediately available.
Would you like to explore this technique more closely?

The other option in the Recording Credibility of Family Relationships article is to add Father & Mother as Fact Witness Roles of the Birth event (instead of Bride's/Groom's Father Roles of Marriage) and add the relationship Source Citations there.

JC64 wrote: ↑

12 Feb 2021 10:20

You say that "there is no 'relationship fact' as such to create a specific relationship between two individuals". I accept that in FH7 there is not. But in life there are relationship facts: DNA testing will establish them, and documents such as the one I have described will refer to them. In FH7 it seems that relationship facts are implied by the structure of the family tree, and can be accessed by the Relationship Function, but these are implicit and there is not way to link a citation directly to them.

What I meant by that is that there is no specific relationship fact (i.e. the term used within FH for a record of an an event or attribute) defined in FH. It is a software representation of relationships determined by the evidence known to you or obtained from other sources.

So again with DNA, if it provides evidence of a genetic link between two individuals, that is a source of evidence for the purpose of recording a relationship. You cite that source against each of the individuals concerned to "prove" that the relationship exists. The relationship is then indicated in FH, within the Focus Window or in Diagrams, by the link you have created between the individuals within the software; and the confirmation of the relationship is the DNA match cited against each of them.

So it may be better to think in terms that the information in your possession (I nearly said "facts", but didn't want to confuse documentary or other evidence with the term used for events and attributes in the software) informs and creates the structure of your tree, rather than the reverse.

For ancestors and other individuals that you have no personal knowledge of, and may have only discovered by searching historic documents, the proof of relationships between individuals in your tree may well consist solely of that type of evidence, cited against them as sources. For your siblings, parents, aunts and uncles, you might consider your knowledge of the relationships to also be a form of proof, which of course it can be, and you could if you wished cite your personal knowledge or recollection as a source too in such situations.

Thanks again for the reply. There is something here that I do not understand.

You say:

You cite that source against each of the individuals concerned to "prove" that the relationship exists.

Similarly Mike says in an earlier post above:

I think most FH users set the Citation against the Father's <whole record> possibly with a Note that it identifies the Father-Child relationship.

How do I do this - link a citation to an individual's whole record?

Mike - Thank you. Yes I have studied the Recording Credibility of Family Relationships article. I need to do some thinking to clarify the term 'witness'. I had assumed it meant witness of the event, not witness of the relationship. I will come back if there is something there that I cannot grasp.

JC64 wrote: ↑

12 Feb 2021 12:21

Thanks again for the reply. There is something here that I do not understand.

You say:

You cite that source against each of the individuals concerned to "prove" that the relationship exists.

Similarly Mike says in an earlier post above:

I think most FH users set the Citation against the Father's <whole record> possibly with a Note that it identifies the Father-Child relationship.

How do I do this - link a citation to an individual's whole record?

Mike - Thank you. Yes I have studied the Recording Credibility of Family Relationships article. I need to do some thinking to clarify the term 'witness'. I had assumed it meant witness of the event, not witness of the relationship. I will come back if there is something there that I cannot grasp.

In the yellow citation pane at the bottom of the Property Box, click on the "Sources For" dropdown, and select <whole record>.

As I said before, there is often more than one way to do things and you have to decide what is best for you.

My background has been in assembling and preparing evidence for criminal prosecutions, so I find applying a similar process to genealogical research suits my methodology. If I have a source that proves a link between two people, I cite it against the whole record for both of them. The link can then be seen from either individual and tested both ways. I am happy with that approach and tend not to add a note unless for exceptional circumstances, as examination of the cited source contains the evidence, but you might prefer what Mike is suggesting, or discover an alternative that you prefer.

Excellent. Thank you.

The FH term 'Fact Witness' is somewhat misleading and not meant literally. Other products call it a 'Shared Fact'.
It does not necessarily mean that the Individuals sharing the fact were literally witnesses or even present.
Their Role is crucial in understanding the manner in which they were involved in the fact.
e.g.
For a Marriage event, popular 'Shared/Witness Fact' Roles are Best-man, Bridesmaid, Minister, as well as Witness.
For a Will event, the Roles are typically Executor, Beneficiary, and Witness, where the first two may not even be present but can help establish family relationships.

So the Role of Bride's Father does not necessarily imply they were present, and the associated Narrative Sentence could be inhibited completely or conditionally on whether they were deceased. FH has a great many options and sometimes you have to overlook the terminology and just make best use of the features to achieve your objectives.

Thank you Mike. That helps!