* Additional Untitled Sources

[E Wilcock]

I realise I have spent so long drafting this that it is supper time in UK. It can wait till tomorrow or Monday for an answer.

I have somehow acquired three untitled sources. I would like to know how I accidentally created them to avoid creating yet more.
Each is cited only once.

If one clicks the vacant source field in fh7, does that automatically create a new untitled source?
Or if one just enters an unsourced event (although I dont think that happens) does fh7 create one ready?
Once the pane is open if one uses the cross top right to close it, it closes but the unwanted new source remains. How does one cancel this unwanted new source or refrain from creating it?
One is asked if one wants to use an existing source or create a new one and one may well want to look at the list to see whether that source already exists or not?
When I am working in a hurry I often fill in just a two or three word source title, assuming that I can merge two sources and that their citations (e.g. where in the source or text from source) will remain unchanged. Is this correct?

[ColeValleyGirl]

Have you used the Source button on the task bar to prepare a citation to a new source? If you do, FH creates a blank source for you to complete. It may not be your problem, but I've been distracted a couple of times by phone calls, door bells, etc. and forgotten to enter the source data before closing FH...

[LornaCraig]

I have somehow acquired three untitled sources. I would like to know how I accidentally created them to avoid creating yet more. Each is cited only once.

As each of your three untitled sources has one citation the first thing you need to do is find out where each on has been used. Click on each one in turn to open its Property Box and then use the Cog menu in the Property Box toolbar and choose Show Source Record’s Citations in Results Window. You can then decide whether the citation should really have been to a different (existing) source and if necessary create a new citation to the correct source. The unwanted source can then be deleted by selecting it in the Records window and hitting the delete key. Alternatively you could, as you have suggested, merge the two source records (see below).

If, on the other hand, the Results window shows that this is a genuine new source which is needed you can now open its Property Box (or open it in the Citation window) and complete its title.

Once the pane is open if one uses the cross top right to close it, it closes but the unwanted new source remains. How does one cancel this unwanted new source or refrain from creating it?

If you realise immediately that you have created a new source accidentally you can remove it by using Edit>Undo. Otherwise you will need to delete the source from the Records window, as described above.

When I am working in a hurry I often fill in just a two or three word source title, assuming that I can merge two sources and that their citations (e.g. where in the source or text from source) will remain unchanged. Is this correct?

Ideally you should always check exactly what is being merged, but if the two source records have a completely different set of citations they should all be retained OK. But when you select the two records to be merged, make sure that the one with the correct title is moved to the top in the right hand side of the Merge Records window, so that its title is the one which is retained.

[E Wilcock]

Thank you Lorna. Only one was used and only for a dummy person I had invented to try and see what was going on.
I have deleted all four.

[Gowermick]

I wouldn’t class this as a bug per se, but something must be amiss, as I too have unknowingly created a few empty citations since moving to FH7, something that never happened in FH6.

[jbtapscott]

It's the way FH7 works now - as soon as you hit the Source button and the window opens, FH creates a new Source record. As there is no Save / OK button you get a blank Source record if you don't add any data. Personally, I think this is wrong but, in essence, that appears to be the way FH works now!

[LornaCraig]

I don't think there is a fundamental difference from V6 in this respect. In V7 if you hit the source button in the main toolbar you still have to choose whether to create a new source (templated or generic) or just add a citation to an existing one. FH doesn't create a new source until you choose that option. In V6 the equivalent was Add>Source. And if you click the Add Citation button in the Sources For pane you still have to choose whether to create a new source or select an existing one, just as in V6.

[Gowermick]

Sorry Lorna, I agree with Jbtapscot.
Many programmes allow you to create something, but don’t normally commit you to the creation until you press ‘Save’ or ‘Ok’. It is a minor flaw with FH7 that requires no such confirmation, and creates it anyway. This goes against the accepted norm, and in my mind goes against the way we work with a Windows GUI.
It is also happening with Ancestry ( or is it FindmyPast?) where one is allowed to highlight certain fields, but then not allowed to overwrite it, yet allowed to do so in other fields!
Consistency is the key, and for one programme or website to go against the norm is wrong!

[LornaCraig]

Sorry but I still don't agree that in this respect V7 is significantly different from V6. V7 has introduced a new way of creating one particular type of record, a Source record, in the Citation window. It's true that the citation window has no 'save' button but nor does the Property box which you would have used in V6 for creating a new record of any type. When you created a new Source record (or any other type of record) in V6 you typed details into a new Property Box. There is not, and has never been, a 'save' button on a Property box.

Incidentally, if you are using only generic sources you can create a new one by right-clicking in a blank area of the Sources tab of the Records window, and choosing New Source. Then double click on it to open it in the Propery Box. Just the same as V6.

[E Wilcock]

But there is something else annoying Lorna. If one chooses to add an existing source, in v6 one got the source and could write or paste in text for that particular citation.
Using the copy source button, one could then paste it in to further people complete with that citation.
In Version 7 using an existing source, that source opens up with the most recent citation. Whereas I want it blank.
I dont use ancestral sources. But I do sometimes have enormous lists of people from the German 1939 census and the UK 1939 register or German miitary killed and in fh6 I had my own way of handling the citations.
The sources in version 7 are driving me mad.
Yesterday I opened one of my ancestral trees which I used and entered data in in fh6. However fh7 complained that it could not locate a whole list of untitled sources. I assume they could be a legacy from my first software Pedigree (DOS) but I dont know.
I opened up TMG (first time on this present computer) and I could not see those sources at all.

The Post script to this is that for purposes of academic research I would like to revert to fh 6 but I believe that by doing so, I would store up problems for the future.

[Martin Tolley]

I concur with Jbtapscot & Gowermick. And have said so before. Additions to databases without a "save" option are irritating and potentially dangerous to data. Nobody seems to design systems that allow deleting material without confirmation... for exactly that reason.

[LornaCraig]

But there is something else annoying Lorna. If one chooses to add an existing source, in v6 one got the source and could write or paste in text for that particular citation.
Using the copy source button, one could then paste it in to further people complete with that citation.
In Version 7 using an existing source, that source opens up with the most recent citation. Whereas I want it blank.....

Evelyn, I wonder if you are not selecting the correct option? When you click the Source button in the main toolbar you choose between Create Source... (either generic or templated) or Prepare Citation to Existing Source or View Prepared Citation. I wonder if you have been choosing the last option. If you do, you will be presented with the most recently prepared Source/Citation combination, and that's not what you want. But if you choose to Prepare Citation to Existing Source you can select the required source and the citation fields will be blank, just as you want.

(Similarly, if you start from the Sources for pane attached to the Property Box and click Add Citation then Cite Existing Source you can select the required source and the citation fields will be blank ready for you to complete.)

[LornaCraig]

Additions to databases without a "save" option are irritating and potentially dangerous to data.

I understand that some people may have concerns about the lack of a save button on the Citation Window, but I still cannot understand why this concern has only arisen now. As I have said, in previous versions of FH you would have used the Property Box. And the Property Box has always been used to create new records of any type. When you create a new Individual record, for example, the data from each field is saved as soon as you tab out of the field. The Citation window is no different. But in all the years FH has existed I don't remember anyone complaining about the lack of a save button on the Property Box. If it's not a problem with the Property Box why is it a problem with the Citation Window?

[Martin Tolley]

It is potentially a problem with both. In my view the creation of any new addition, definition, source, citation or whatever to a database is potentially dangerous without confirmation. And here there seem to be instances of things being created that are not intuitive or intended and require actions to undo. It matters not which version of FH you have. And certainly here some folk are finding it a nuisance and are complaining about it. Largely I guess because it is not a common practice in good software interface design. If even a couple of users find it gets in the way of using the software for its intended purpose that is a failing. As I said, people don't design systems that delete without confirmation and in my view additions should be treated in the same way. One of the key elements in user satisfaction with software is user's confidence in the integrity of their data. Confirmation of actions that may affect that integrity is one such element. Most software requires an "OK" action to commit a change. It's not difficult.

[jbtapscott]

I can only add that whatever may / may not have been in earlier version, V7 is the first time I have had "blank" source records created. I am of the view that "blank" records of any sort should not be created (in any application) - there should, as a minimum, always be some form of validation such that a Title or similar key field , must be populated.

[Gowermick]

Lorna, you seem to be approaching this from a programmers viewpoint rather than the users. If the users are having a problem, there must be something wrong with the program and the programmer ought to do something about it. They shouldn’t be saying ‘you‘re doing it wrong’ they should be asking themselves ‘why are they doing it wrong’ and sort it out!

Just like the map problem. If the current map is wrong for the users (text in Arabic or Cyrillic), CP ought to do something about it. Don’t keep saying that is how OpenStreetMap works, if that is the case, then that map choice is not suitable, and they should choose another mapping source!

PS Maybe users are having problems with citations because the Save option for citation has been taken away! It was never there in the property box so they don’t miss what they never had!

[ColeValleyGirl]

On the subject of Save buttons, I prefer not to have them -- it's just another damned thing to click when I've already checked what I've done -- and FH has operated that way so long I don't think twice about their absence. (I also turn on Autosave in any programme that offers it, to streamline data entry. ) So I'm pleased that CP have remained consistent and not introduced them for this single new UI element...

However, I can see that others might like them, especially when they're getting used to a new product/UI and/or their previous product included them.

Delete confirmations are another kettle of fish -- something destructive should always be explicitly confirmed (even though FH has an undo capability).

On the subject of Untitled Sources, you could also create them with gay abandon in FH6.

Click Add > Source from the menu, or right click in the Sources List and choose New Source.

You get an empty form to fill in for the source you just created-- if you close the form without entering any data, you get an Untitled Source.

So I'm not sure how the Source > Create Source route differs from that -- you get an empty form to fill in for the source you just created. It's the Add Source/New Source/Create Source action that creates the source before you even see the form. You may not like the way it works, but it hasn't changed from FH6.

[Gowermick]

On the subject of Untitled Sources, you could also create them with gay abandon in FH6.

Helen,
That is the problem, we didn’t create them in FH6.

For me, it has only been happening since upgrading to FH7. What we could do and what we actually do are two entirely different things!

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike L,

What sequence of actions did you use to create a Source in FH6? And how does that differ from how you create them in FH7? If we can isolate the differences, that could help avoid untitled source in FH7.

[LornaCraig]

Lorna, you seem to be approaching this from a programmers viewpoint rather than the users.

Gowermick, I'm not a programmer, just a user. And I agree with everything Helen has said. When you create a new record of any type you get an empty form to fill in for the record (source/individual/repository etc) you just created-- if you close the form without entering any data, you get an untitled record.

I'm not suggesting you are doing anything wrong, but I'm not sure why some users are having a particular problem accidentally creating unwanted source records in V7. It may be a question of a particular work-flow approach inherited from earlier versions, so it will be interesting to see, in the longer term, whether this probelm also afflicts new users who start with V7.

[Gowermick]

Helen and Lorna,
I haven’t analysed what I do to create these blanks, but I haven’t changed the way I work (except out of neccesity due to changes in FH7). I now get blanks in FH7, where I didn’t get them in FH6.
As I said before, something is wrong if so many users are reporting the same thing, and really, it is down to CP to acknowledge there is a problem and sort it out!

[ColeValleyGirl]

Helen and Lorna,
I haven’t analysed what I do to create these blanks, but I haven’t changed the way I work (except out of necessity due to changes in FH7). I now get blanks in FH7, where I didn’t get them in FH6.

Can you share with us how you work, then, so we can get to the bottom of how FH7 might be creating blank sources when FH6 didn't?

As I said before, something is wrong if so many users are reporting the same thing, and really, it is down to CP to acknowledge there is a problem and sort it out!

Has anyone logged it with CP? Whoever does will need to explain how they work.

[Jane]

On a clean install in V7 when I add a new source of either type a box appears which says.

2021-01-28_154531.jpg (20.7 KiB) Viewed 6276 times

So I would have thought this made it clear that a source had been created and how to remove it if you did not want one.

[tatewise]

I suspect they have unticked the Show this again next time option and forgotten what it said

[E Wilcock]

Yes I got that message. But I didnt know what the Edit menu meant.
There are lots of edit menus arent there? And if it is Control Z goodness know what wil be deleted.