Family Historian User Group

Has anyone tried using a Remote Desktop to a Windows 7 PC running FH & AS ?

With the the demise of support for Win7 earlier this year, I have taken the significant step of leaving the Windows environment for a Linux one.

I am now running a dual boot of Windows 7 and Linux Mint 19.3 (Cinnamon edition). Linux is running quite well on my venerable desktop, even with "just" 4GB RAM. My only need for Windows 7 now is FH & AS.

Logically, to use FH and AS successfully without the dual booting, I am faced with all the possibilities of Wine/Crossover/virtual machines (I have read all the forum stuff) - all of which seem to have different issues to solve. They also bring a significant increase in the amount of memory required, over and above the basic OS needs. 4Gb is not enough.

I am now really at the point where I really need to upgrade my PC motherboard, processor & memory, it was last done in 2007. With the covid-19 enforced time in, what better task could I find (apart from FH) to keep me busy ?

However, I am seriously considering keeping my current parts running Win7 in a smaller box, and accessing the "thing" using a remote desktop from Linux, running Remmina. It is therefore isolated from the web etc., requires no install, setup or anything else doing except turning on RDP and some work with a screwdriver and a bit of network cable.

I have given this and other forums a good scouring, but haven't happened across anything, and wondered if anyone has had a go at remote desktop, but never posted.

Here is a bit of techie background.

I am a "retired" consumer electronics design engineer with a background in IT from the 80's and 90's, with other experience collected along the way since.

I already run a domestic network that has various PCs with old Microsoft OS's doing various server tasks already.
These are WinNT4 & Win2k, there is also a 2TB Netgear Ready NAS as my family data backup.
As far as I am concerned, my data is my responsibility, and I am quite happy to look after it here at home.

I already control the Win2k machine from the Linux machine, it works very well for the limited tasks I do with it, especially for an OS that is now 20 years old, on a set of parts that were my desktop PC from 1999.

P.S. "retired" means I just don't get a salary anymore.

Personally I would be tempted to go down the Virtual Box or Vmware route rather than separate hardware, but it's up to you which way you want to go.

Don't forget no internet will also mean no automatic matching and it will be more complex if you want to copy in files downloaded from the internet.

tLeodiensian wrote: ↑

06 Apr 2020 14:45

...
I am now running a dual boot of Windows 7 and Linux Mint 19.3 (Cinnamon edition). Linux is running quite well on my venerable desktop, even with "just" 4GB RAM. My only need for Windows 7 now is FH & AS.

Logically, to use FH and AS successfully without the dual booting, I am faced with all the possibilities of Wine/Crossover/virtual machines (I have read all the forum stuff) - all of which seem to have different issues to solve. They also bring a significant increase in the amount of memory required, over and above the basic OS needs. 4Gb is not enough.

With Lubuntu (currently using 18.04 with LXDE) I just about got away with 4Gb - as long as I checked that Firefox was not "hogging" it. But a browser is a fairly essential companion program to FH. Mint is a bit greedier than Lubuntu for RAM.

Currently still on Lubuntu (18.04 with LXDE) but with 8Gb running FH in Wine and taking a very straightforward approach. Let Lubuntu install Wine, put my FH installation files in the resultant "C:\" drive, right click on them and "Open with" Wine Windows Program Loader - which puts FH into my menu structure.

• I have not got AS working as easily, but find that with my workflow that is not a big issue.
• The loss of the FH supplied pdf file driver means I cannot print big banner trees to a pdf
• Dragging and dropping a media file from outside the project directory structure can some times hang the machine (so copy into the project media directory and then drag and drop from there or use the File Add icon)
• Don't click away from the "unrecognised date format dialog"! Correct the date or cancel the date input. Not doing this can hang FH.

tLeodiensian wrote: ↑

06 Apr 2020 14:45

However, I am seriously considering keeping my current parts running Win7 in a smaller box, and accessing the "thing" using a remote desktop from Linux, running Remmina. It is therefore isolated from the web etc., requires no install, setup or anything else doing except turning on RDP and some work with a screwdriver and a bit of network cable.

I will be interested to know how you get on with this. I have (with 8Gb) considered trying to reinstall an old Win7 OS in virtual box, but it was an OEM Win7 and MS does not let them "play nicely", so I live reasonably happily with WINE.

I will wait a while after FH7 come out to see if anyone else can test drive it under WINE, before upgrading.

If you can access the memory in your machine (as a desktop you should be able to), why not just buy a bit more RAM?

(Alternatively if you have a dual boot machine, is there any way that from Linux you can "boot" the Windows side via some form of virtualisation software? I suspect not as I have found that with UEFI Windows takes a vice like grip on resources and completely shutting it down is possible but tricky)

Remote Desktop would probably give you the ability to run FH & AS remotely on your 'thing'.
I am more concerned about your proposal that it would be "isolated from the web".
FH and its Plugins often need web access for many purposes:

• Downloading and installing updates or new versions of FH and Plugins from Calico Pie
• Downloading and installing free customisations from FHUG Downloads and Links
• Internet Data Match 'hints' via Focus Window
• Plugins access the web for FHUG Help & Advice pages, search online genealogy websites, Google Maps, etc
• Browsing and downloading media and transcripts from online genealogy websites (Ancestry, FindMyPast, etc)
• Possibly others I have overlooked...

Some of those could be performed on the Linux machine and copied to the 'thing' on a USB stick, but sounds tedious.

This is not something that I had thought of so I thought I would give it a try.

I have TeamViewer install on all my computers. I ran it on my iMac and also on an old Windows laptop. I remoted in to the iMac and happily ran Family Historian (PlayOnMac) version I checked some FindMyPast hints. Updated a couple of records all without issue.

This was only a quick and dirty test to see if it works and it does. The onl problem was that the iMac has a 5K screen and the windows laptop only had an HD spec screen and so everything was a bit small. The other way round though would not be a problem.

Colin, you have reinforced the point made by others, that web access is needed to check some FindMyPast 'hints'.
But the OP is proposing the Windows platform would be "isolated from the web".

Mike

I did say that i also updated a couple of records without issue so it will work fine without internet access providing that it has network access. Although TeamViewer does need the internet to work as do most Remote Desktop programmes as they assume it will be remote access.

Bearing in mind this is similar to something Microsoft is promoting for the next version of windows whereby the terminal is dumb and the software will run as a service on their servers in the 'cloud'

I agree that Remote Access would allow update of FH records but little else.
e.g.
When running AS as required by the OP, where would the source data and images come from?
How would FH, AS, Plugins and other downloads get updated/installed?
Backups would only be local and could not use cloud storage.

I believe it would become tediously annoying to have to use the Linux system to access the web and transfer everything to and from the Windows platform on USB sticks or perhaps via the LAN.

Thanks to all who have posted, the thoughts and comments have been really helpful in any number of ways. It really is good to hear from such a knowledgeable group of users.

(It takes me back to my work days, when the best test of an idea was for fellow engineers to bounce these kind of thoughts about after an initial proposition. It is one of the disadvantages of the retirement thingy, you often become a team of one.)

I am still thinking about some of the points you have raised, and I will try and get back to you all in due course.

I the interim, I'd like to throw in a few points that I either I didn't express very well, or that your critiques have refined for me.

I guess that there was probably an unintentional misdirection by saying "isolated from the web" - what I meant was that the "thing" (let's call it a "Win7 box") would not natively be running browser or email (i.e. "world wide web"), but there is no reason why it can't have internet data access, so long as it is properly firewalled.

It is true that drag and drop probably wouldn't work, but as I'm much happier seeing files downloaded and residing in folders, it wouldn't be a problem for me. Seeing I've been using FH since 2004, I rarely use projects except to get those facilities that are project only. My research data is stored in a multi folder structure I have used for a long time.

In terms of getting downloaded/created data to it, my thinking is that all my family history data is kept on the Win7 box, and I would symlink from my Linux PC data structure to make it possible to download files straight to the project data folder(s). There is also the possibility of setting it up with a simple RAID array for better data security.

That's enough for now, I need to sleep on a few ideas.

Thanks again.

Regarding Windows 7, last time I looked it is still possible to upgrade to Windows 10 for free.

Hi Trevor,

We have two desktop PCs that are running Windows 7 and a Linx 10.1 tablet that I bought in 2015 running Windows 8.1.
The two PCs have had a customised install of Windows 7. Not unusually, they have physically separate "data" and "programs/OS" discs, but in our case, there is an unusual difference.

In Win 7, 8.1 and 10, Microsoft happily allow you to move your "data" to a separate disc (e.g. D:), but your user profile and app settings remain on C:. I have been involved in IT long enough (30+ years) to know the safety brought about by getting user profiles/settings away from the OS disc. You always find that that essential, latest, automatic, backup just didn't happen when you really need it, and you only find out after it's too late.

During the initial install of Windows, there is a way that you can break out into WinPE (Production Environment) and move all the User profile stuff to D:, which is what I did in 2014 when I moved from XP.

I have found a post on the Microsoft Support site that explicitly states that if you have done this, the Win10 upgrade will fail, potentially with data loss as a consequence !!! - I've no idea why, but I don't intend to risk it. I think I made a note of that URL somewhere, but can't find it just now.
My Win7 Pro versions are 32 bit, so I'd be stuck with 32 bit Win10 and the 4GB limit.
So an upgrade is off - purchase 2x Win10_64 copies from new is the only option.

Regarding the Linx tablet with Win8.1, it has a 24GB internal disc C:, it is already hard to keep enough space on it as it is, the disc maintenance required is already becoming a bit of a pain when the monthly updates happen. It might well happily update to 10, but I probably can't then install any useful software on it. I have already had to format the SD card to NTFS so I can move Dropbox off C:, and that only saves a couple of Gig.

It will therefore remain on 8.1 until that runs out of support, maybe by then I will have become sufficiently ofay with Linux to be able to do all the necessary division of files across the internal drive and SD card to keep it working. As this is my portable Family Historian device (that is one of the reasons I bought it), my present line of thought about doing remote desktop to a Family Historian "server" become even more attractive, though there are some remote network access issues that would require further research (e.g VPN).

Regards

Doug

Hi Doug,

I'm not sure if it is relevant in your case, but here are the instructions for the free upgrade to Windows 10.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how ... 10-upgrade

Regarding disc space, have you found Smart Sync in Dropbox that allows you to pick and choose which folders/files you wish to have copies of on your hard drive as well as in the cloud, and which you wish to have in the cloud only? So, for folders/files that you only access infrequently the second option frees up lots of space on your hard drive. If you have a decent broadband service you will find the time it takes to access stuff from the cloud is almost nothing.

Hope that helps,

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

Space on the SD card of my Linx tablet isn't a problem, my total Family History data is 16 GB, and I use a memory stick and AllwaySync on the Windows devices. The cloud might not be available in a churchyard in North Yorkshire when you find that tantalizing inscription that just might be one of yours. I can use my local data store and wifi to sync again when I get home, much like Google does with Android.

I used to keep Dropbox data on the SD card, and I used a symlink to make Dropbox think the data was on C:. The SD card was formatted as FAT and then, about a couple of years ago, Dropbox insisted on only being on an NTFS partition.

So I moved it back to C:, and gave the tablet a real mucking out. The real issue is that, as updated Windows gets bigger, and the install "backup system" grabs loads of space to save the updates, it eventually becomes difficult to keep up to date without running "Disc Cleanup".

Now Dropbox is able to be set-up to find the Dropbox folder on D: and it's happy because the FS is NTFS.

I've used MS DOS from 3.3 through to 7, Windows since version 3, through 95, NT 3.5.1 & NT4, 2000, XP and finally 7, and I have decided it is time to move away. The only programs I use across all the various things I do that need actually Windows is FH & AS.

I have been using Lotus SmartSuite at home since about 1993, then, when I needed to manage docx files, I added OpenOffice/LibreOffice. As LO also reads/writes Lotus files, all my documents are still accessible. I have used GIMP for graphics for years, Audacity for audio recording/editing, Firefox is cross platform. All but Lotus are originally Linux software, and free. Linux Mint is free. Why pay Micro$oft when you don't need to ?

My phone is Android, it uses the same core software in the kernel my PC now uses under Linux. Much of the folder structure is identical, so anything I learn about Linux is relevant to the two phones and three tablets we have in our house.

I am also retired, I can now have the philosophy that I no longer "spend money to save time, I spend time to save money".

I am also a Yorkshireman, with over 20 years of family history research behind me. I had securely identified 83 ancestors before I found the first non-Yorkshire born one, and even he returned to his family's home village, to have a family and be buried there.

The Yorkshireman's creed :-
"Eat all, sup all 'n pay nowt, hear all, see all and say nowt, and if tha ivver does owt for nowt, do it for thissen."

Regards
Doug

Thank you all, I hope I haven't muddled your posts up, it's been a long day at the PC.

Thanks to Colin for the TeamViewer testing - that is a significant step to have had checked out at this stage of the project.

Thanks to Mike for the insights into general internetty access stuff and Drag & Drop - I hadn't thought about that method of working.

Thanks to David for useability when running FH/Wine under Lubuntu, and his comments about issues with AS in Wine.

Thanks to Jane for pointing out the need for internet connections for the matching stuff, I'd forgotten about it, I suppose I have rarely used it, primarily because I have had quite a time away from using FH since that feature came along.

Developing the various points :-
Colin -
That rapid check you did using TeamViewer across platforms was really positive, I'll probably use Remmina in Linux, and I will have to research using either TeamViewer or the Chrome browser desktop app in Android, as I don't know whether using Windows Remote Desktop and one of the other host applications in parallel will conflict.
https://remmina.org/

Regarding performance in Linux, I also have a problem with Firefox under Mint, every page opened hogs more memory. I'm forever having to keep closing pages to get some RAM back.

I believe performance is worse still with the Cinnamon desktop, I see long periods waiting for stuff when swapping between programs, and my System Monitor is showing regular uses of over 3.2Gb and 100% CPU use.

Having Ancestral Sources is very important to me, due to the use I make of FH for source recording.
I've been user of Nick's complementary software for a long time. I was even a Beta tester for the first version of AS in 2010.

David :-
RAM - my current PC uses DDR2 Dual channel memory and all four slots are full, when you build a high spec PC in 2007, it isn't quite so high in 2020.

Mike/David
Your discussions about web access in the next version of Windows and it being a cloud based solution, that harks back to my days long ago when we were using a MicroVax II at work, it ran up to 32 dumb terminals. I guess am really proposing a hybrid of that and a (conventional ?) internet connected, PC based system. Though the possibility of doing it all through a terminal is possibly where the world is going, so maybe the features to make that work will appear in the various OSs.

I have already posted that "isolated from the web" was, in my mind, different from "no internet" access.
In thinking it through, I see that internet access is definitely needed and should be allowed for FH & AS updates, access to plugins and the matches system. Good practice also demands that I maintain anti-virus protection and the internet updates that those need. Win 7 is still getting Defender updates. If I want external (to my LAN/WLAN) access to the Win7 box, I will need to sort out firewalling or VPN access, something to learn about for the future.

Regarding bringing data into FH/AS. In Linux, I can easily set up mount points in the Nemo file browser that connect the HDD data on the Win7 box to my PC. So drag 'n drop to folders on the Win7 box should work, even if DnD straight into FH doesn't (I would need to do a test on this). Remmina also has a file transfer feature, that I haven't explored yet.

Email and browsing are always the highest risk activities with regards malware exposure, as they being run in Linux on a properly maintained distribution, ongoing protection is assured.

Other point
Linux allows me four Workspaces, and I already work with dual monitors, so having a full screen open for FH is not a problem, if I can't Drag & Drop, I can keep folder browser windows open and easily accessible.

Conclusion

Here is a round up of my proposed plan following the recent posts and the discussion above.

Very soon :-
Re-boot this dual boot PC into Win7, install Remmina on my sluggish Linux test PC (of 2004 WinXP vintage) and look at various things with FH/AS & file transfer.

Install Chrome Remote Desktop on Win7 and set up Chrome on my wife's 10" Android tablet.

Next week :-
I have now ordered all the parts to create a new desktop PC, to which I can transfer some of the discs from this one. They arrive next week. Linux is not hardware "critical" so you can just move the install to different hardware, allegedly without issue, unlike Windows, which creates the actual installation around the hardware it is installed on and gets very upset if you move it (and it tell Microsoft). Keeping the PC hardware with the existing installation saves a re-install.

If I clone the Windows boot partition, and put that on one of the HDDs retained with the Windows PC components, I think I might have a "Win7 box" for FH etc..

Future
I promise to keep this post updated, and, if it works, and I ever get the opportunity, I'll try and write it up properly.

If any of you have any further comments, I'd like to have them.


Regards

Doug

I've found Chrome Remote Desktop can have problems with modal windows on the remote machine.

TeamViewer (which I had to use to do the books for the local Community Shop) was an unreliable PITA.

I spent two years with my feet up on the settee a few years back and was very happy using Remote Desktop Manager

Hi Helen,

Remote Desktop Manager is, as far as I can tell, Windows only - they don't even mention what OS it runs under on their website, I have had to check out the downloads and see what executables are there.

I'm running Linux Mint with the Cinnamon desktop. https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3832

The Remote Desktop client that is a standard package in Linux Mint is Remmina. This is for Linux OS versions only, but installs on lots of them.

When you tried Chrome were you using an Android or a Chrome client device to a Windows host ?

Regards
Doug

No, I use Chrome remote desktop from a Windows PC.