* Add Image to Citation

[David Potter]

Hi All
Having now cleaned up and simplified over 200 GRO Birth Indexes (converted unique Source/Citation to Citation only using the Add GRO Plug-In enhanced recently by Mike Tate. I now need to add my already available Images to these Citations.

Some will say don't bother, but I have them already and would like to attach them to the now Citation only record. I know there are various ways to accomplish this task but can I have some guidance on the quickest and simplest way to do this within FH please. The image media all exist as Jpegs in a folder within the FH Project folder structure.

Thank You.

David Potter

[tatewise]

Ensure the desired Citation is shown in the yellow Sources For pane.
Click its Show Media button and check Citation Media is selected at the top.
Click the Add Media for Citation button (or drag the JPG media file into dialogue).

Repeat for EVERY Citation including the duplicates on the Name fields.
The Add Media for Citation button offers options to Insert From File or Link to Existing Media Record.

[LornaCraig]

EDIT: Mike's reply arrived as I was writing this. Much the same.

I would start by running the List All Citations for a Source plugin for one of your GRO Sources (birth, marriage or death). In the results set you can work down the Item column clicking on each cell in turn, to open the Property Box with the focus on the relevant fact. Select the Source in the yellow Source pane and click the Show Media icon to open the Media for ... window. The first time you do this, make sure Citation Media is selected and Source Media is not selected. (After this the window should remain open with Citation Media selected).

As you already have all the media in a folder within the project structure the quickest method might be the 'drag and drop' method. So keep that folder open and in each case drag the relevant file from the folder and drop it into the Media for window. Repeat for the other GRO sources. At the end you could run the Check for Unlinked Media plugin to make sure you have used all the images.

[tatewise]

David has at least two Citations for the same GRO Ref; one on BMD Event and one/two on Name.
So the drag & drop is unsatisfactory on the 2nd/3rd Citation and must use Add Media for Citation > Link to Existing Media Record.

[tatewise]

David, with duplicate and sometimes triplicate identical Citations that now need Media images, I would be tempted to go for 'splitter' Source records for each specific GRO Index and keep the Citations almost empty.

[David Potter]

Firstly, Thank you Mike and Lorna for your help in solving this requirement. I can see that jointly you have described the way forward.

However, having just spent many hours moving away from unique Splitter Sources into Citation Only records, I can see I have now created another monster to manage if I want to include images, understanding that I know I don't have to but I would like to. I think the best of the worst outcome would be to attach the image to the Birth related Citation only and leave the Name Citation empty of images.

Any thoughts welcome...

Thank you - David

[tatewise]

I think there is at least one snag with that approach related to Reports.
The Citation with an image is considered a different Citation to the one without.
So in Reports, there will be two entries in the Sources section instead of just one.
Even if you disable the Citation images in the Report there will still be two entries, which is even more confusing because they will look identical.

An important side issue of using programs like FH is to check out the impact of a particular strategy on displays, Reports, Diagrams, etc, before committing wholesale to that strategy.

Have you gone too far down the 'lumper' GRO Index source route to backtrack?

[davidf]

...
Have you gone too far down the 'lumper' GRO Index source route to backtrack?

How easy would it be (for someone who can do LUA) to write a plug-in that would take a lumped source and convert it into multiple split sources (title based on lumped source title + individual "where within source") and take any citation media and reallocate it to the new split source?

I guess going the other way with a group split sources is a touch more difficult

[tatewise]

See plugins:wip:separate_bmd_sources|> Separate BMD Sources that does not go quite as far as you need, but as its Notes say, it is a step in that direction and would work along exactly the lines you suggest in terms of creating a Title.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

With the greatest of respect I did read the help files you sent me and practically every recent post on this topic and nowwhere does it mention this trade-off issue. And as a non expert user I would not have known that issue even exists. But thank you for pointing it out. I'll sit tight and think on this.

I have gone to far with the Lumper technique all the unique sources are now gone. I could try to find a backup but I was doing other clean up tasks beside this so not that easy to select the appropriate one.

@Davidf - thanks David that idea would be useful and not just as a one off. Others could make good use of it.

Thank you both

David

[tatewise]

I guess you are referring to the Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source (17460) thread where I suggested you checkout glossary:sources#sources_and_citations_-_how_to_use_them|> Sources and Citations - how to use them and its links to Method 1 'splitter' and Method 2 'lumper' explanations.
Each Introduction to those two explanations sets three criteria to help choose the most suitable Method.
That you want to attach Media and have multiple Citations for the same reference suggests Method 1 is best.

I admit it does not mention that if you choose Method 2 and add Media to only some replicated Citations then there will be a snag with Reports. That omission will be corrected soon.

I've experimented with that scenario and twin entries in the Sources section only occur if Citation Media are enabled.
I must have been thinking of some other discrepancy that causes twin entries.
However, the point is that with multiple Citations they must be identical as far as the details included in the Report are concerned to avoid multiple entries in the Sources section, and that is more challenging with Method 2 as they hold much more information.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike
Sorry for my terse reply this morning and the spelling mistakes. I got off to a bad start today with a few things going wrong. Plus having spent 15 - 20 hours converting the GRO Splitter Sources into Citation only and then to hear adding images would cause a further issue tipped the balance into bad mood mode. Apologies.

So my choices appear to be:
1) Try the Plug-In to rebuild Splitter type Sources, then add media only once. But at least all these recreated Sources will be consistent and provide a good template going forward.
2) Add the image to both Citations Name and Birth, although introduces duplication going forward and effort to attach 2 x media
3) Remove the Name Citation so only have the single Citation for Birth only. Not a great loss I guess

I'll have a think...

Thanks once again.

David

[LornaCraig]

There is a fourth option: simply don't add the images to FH at all. By all means keep them, as you have downloaded them. Then you can use them to check that you have recorded the GRO reference correctly if you want to order a certificate, for example. But images of GRO index pages don't really add anything to the information you already have when you have recorded the reference. Personally I would not want to include them in reports. The reason why many people use the 'lumper'/Method 2 system for index-style sources is precisely because there is little to be gained by saving an image in FH of a page from an index when that index is widely available online (as the GRO indexes are).

[David Potter]

Hi Lorna. I think you nailed it there. I'll copy out the media folder images to somewhere safe and then delete from FH.

Thank you for that...

David

[tatewise]

I have looked in more depth at the options for adding Media to a Source record, a Citation, and a Fact.
There are many anomalies and inhibited options depending on which method is used to access the Media.
To explore them, I linked the same Media record to a Source, its Citation, and its Fact.
As usual, there are many methods to add & edit such Media:

1. Via the buttons in dialogues:
   • Source record Media has options to Link to Detail, Exclude from Diagrams/Reports, Use Note as Caption
   • Facts tab Show Media button for Citation Media and Edit button inhibits all those options
   • Facts tab Show Media button for Fact Media and Edit button inhibits the Link to Detail option
2. Via the All tab:
   • Individual Property Box for all three Media links offers all options except Link to Detail
     But edits to Source & Citation links to same Media for Exclude From are tied together ~ a bug!
   • Source Property Box for all three Media links offers all options except Link to Detail without bug
   • Media Property Box > Links tab for all three Media links offers all the options

I intend to report all those anomalies to Calico Pie.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

Thank you for going the extra mile to figure out these options and their inherent issues, and reporting them.

Thank you everyone who contributed to this post and got me back on track with my Source Clean Up tasks. A long way to go but a good start nonetheless.

Kind regards

David

[jmurphy]

Thanks all for your comments on this thread. I've been pondering what to do about my GRO indexes.

Like David, I do have some images (downloads from Ancestry, FreeBMD, etc.). I also have text-only bits from the GRO's own online searchable index.

Since I create different sources for "the same" data where the source-of-source is different, I have a source for things gotten directly from FreeBMD vs. those downloaded from Ancestry and so on. I've generally been a 'splitter' about these because I work from Multimedia Object > Source > data entry using Auto-Source Citation (for those items I don't enter using Ancestral Sources).

But for the GRO's online index which is 'born digital' it makes more sense to be a Lumper and have one source per event type and use "Text From Source" to store the online text.

I plan to go over the Knowledge Base articles before I set out to do tons of data entry. This post is largely to bookmark this thread and get notifications for replies.

Good luck, David!

[LornaCraig]

I intend to report all those anomalies to Calico Pie.

Mike, there is another anomaly you might want to report. As it is related to the others, it would make sense to add it to the same 'ticket' with Calico Pie.

On the Links tab of the Multimedia Object Property Box, and also on the Links tab of the main Media Window/Workspace, all the links are listed including links to Source Citations. Yet if you click the Add Simple Link icon you can choose to link to an Individual, a Family, a Place, a Source record or note only, but there is no option to link to a source citation.

Another slight oddity is that on those Links tabs the links to source citations are listed as links to the whole record to which they relate, followed in the Detail column by the by the name of the Source record whose citation they are linked to. This is not really a problem but intuitively I feel the Source record should be in the first column, and the Details column should show the individual fact where the media item is linked to the source citation.

[Jane]

Lorna,
Citations are not records, so I suspect it would be impracticable to select a citation from within the media window, how would you expect to select the citation you want to add a link to?

[tatewise]

Also there is no option to link the Media to a Fact.
As Jane says it would be tricky to choose a Citation or a Fact especially as Citations can be associated with so many different types of item and not just Facts.

However, there is an identity problem where the same Source is cited by various items in the same Individual record.
e.g. <whole record>, Name and Facts
They all have the same Links and Detail column entries of Individual record and Source record.
So given that you cannot adjust some options via the Show Media button, it is difficult to choose the desired entry via the Links tab too! The only easy method I've found is to fill in the Caption Note box with identifying keywords.
Another way is to use the blue arrow Go To button or Locate in Property Box button. Why two different button names?

I will add those observations to the ticket.

[LornaCraig]

Yes, I realise it would have to be a multi-stage process, drilling down to the exact citation. So it would be cumbersome. I just feel there might be some confusion if someone sees a list of links including a citation link or a link to a fact but is not offered any way of creating that kind of link in the tab they are looking at. Perhaps the menu of options should include a final line saying "links to ciations or facts must be made via the Property Box of the record concerned".

[tatewise]

The CP support ticket is "Source, Citation, Fact linked Media anomalies" #975682.

The Calico Pie reply was:

Thank for reporting this. We will look into it. Please bear in mind that the various attributes you mention (even including the frame, if there is one, and the link note - what you call a 'caption note') are not attributes of the picture (i.e. Media record) in Family Historian. They are attributes of the *link* to the picture (there is no limit to the number of links that a picture can have, or where these links can come from). So if any of these attributes are being changed, we need to implicitly or explicitly identify not just the picture, but the relevant link to it. The question is always - which link does this change apply to? In some contexts we have chosen to allow the 'Show Media' dialog to display a wider set of pictures - because this was useful for the user. But in doing so, an ambiguity may be introduced about which links are relevant to the current context. If, for example, you are showing pictures linked to a fact, it seems reasonable to allow you to set attributes for each such link (from fact to picture). But if we are also showing pictures linked to citations linked to that fact, or even pictures linked to sources linked to citations linked to that fact, we have taken the view that the user cannot be expected to be clear about which link or links will be affected, and have disabled the options in that context - even though it may then not be obvious why those options have been disabled.

There is a trade-off between the utility of showing a wider set of pictures, and the ambiguity that this creates with respect to links. In some cases, there may even not be a single link that could be updated. For example, in the case where we are showing a wide set of pictures associated with a given Fact, each source and citation picture associated with a given fact, will only appear once; but each of them could in principle be associated with multiple citations, or even multiple sources. So if you updated a link, which link would you be updating?

An additional wrinkle is that not all of the relevant attributes are supported in all contexts; so the solution in some cases may be more disabling not less.

All this said, we accept that improvements can be made in this area, and we will look into it.

I have replied saying:

Thank you for your reply Martin but I am not sure I follow the logic.

I understand that Note box is the Link/Note but it is also associated with the Use Note as Caption option so called it the Caption Note.
I also know that all those options are tied to the Link/Note via the _ASID number.

In most cases via the Show Media buttons the Link/Note instance is absolutely explicitly identified and the context is unambiguous.
The only exception is the Facts tab Show Media button for Include Citation Media and Include Source Record Media.
That could be resolved by making those two options complementary radio button toggles, as in the other Show Media dialogue.

In all the other cases the Link/Note Caption text can be edited, thus its instance must have been explicitly identified. So, why are all the five other Link/Note related options inhibited?

Both the Media record Property Box and Media Workspace Window have a Links tab that makes it even more difficult to identify the context of Link/Note instances than via the Show Media buttons, but it is only those Links tabs that offer all the Link/Note options being discussed.

You have not replied to the point about the Add Simple Link button missing options.

[tatewise]

The Calico Pie further reply was:

>> So, why are all the five other Link/Note related options inhibited?

This relates to the 'additional wrinkle' I mentioned in my previous post.

>> Both the Media record Property Box and Media Workspace Window have a Links tab that makes it even more difficult to identify the context of Link/Note instances than via the Show Media buttons

Why more difficult? Surely in these cases, there is the least ambiguity because each link can be explicitly selected by the user?

>> In the Media record Property Box and the Media Workspace Window the Links tab has an Add Simple Link button. That offers links to various whole record types but not to Facts or to Citations anywhere.

That is by design. I have had a quick look at the FHUG discussion you mentioned relating to this, and I see that some of the considerations which motivated this decision are mentioned there.

>> There is also a problem of identifying which link is which for Media linked to Citations. If the same Source record is cited by several items in one Individual (or Family) record and the same Media is linked to each Citation then in the Links tab the Links column and Detail column list the Individual (or Family) record and the Source record respectively for all cases. The only way to tell one from the other is to use the blue arrow Go To button or the Locate in Property Box button.

There is always a trade-off between precision and verbosity. Too much text can be just as confusing for users as too little. Where the underlying reality is quite complex, as it is in this case, there may be no perfect solution. But if you have any suggestions about improvements to the user interface in this or any other area, I would suggest trying to see whether others on the FHUG like your proposals, and, if so, post them on the FHUG wish list.

I don't understand the 'additional wrinkle' repeatedly mentioned, as all of the relevant attributes are supported in all contexts via the Media record Property Box on the Links tab, so why not via the Show Media buttons where with only one exception the context is unambiguous and clearer than the Links tab?
I have already suggested a complementary radio button toggles solution to resolve that one exception.
Has anyone any better suggestions or explanations that I am missing?

[LornaCraig]

Mike, I agree with your suggestion that radio toggle buttons are needed in the Facts tab Show Media dialog.

Calico Pie wrote:

we have taken the view that the user cannot be expected to be clear about which link or links will be affected, and have disabled the options in that context - even though it may then not be obvious why those options have been disabled.

It may or may not be true that some users will be unclear about which links will be affected, but simply disabling the editing options completely just makes things even less clear. It leaves users wondering why they can’t do any editing.

in the case where we are showing a wide set of pictures associated with a given Fact, each source and citation picture associated with a given fact, will only appear once; but each of them could in principle be associated with multiple citations, or even multiple sources. So if you updated a link, which link would you be updating?

I think the point they are making here is that even when it is unambiguous as to whether a picture is linked to a Source or a Citation, the same image could in principle be linked more than once to the same Source or to the same Citation. But surely if the picture is linked more than once either it’s a mistake (it should only have been linked once) or it has been linked more than once precisely because the user wants to edit features of the different links. For example I sometimes link an image of a whole page of a PR to a Source and also use a frame link to pick out an individual entry. The frame link will also have a different link note, referring to the individual. I am able to do this because I use the Links tab of main Media Window or the Media record Property Box.

the solution in some cases may be more disabling not less.

Well I hope they don’t disable the ability to do that editing on the Links tab! I remember that during V6 Beta testing I found initially that it was not possible to add more than one link between a media record and another record. When I raised this at the time, they changed it so that a message appears saying “You already have a link to this item. Proceed anyway?” This is a sensible warning, but having said yes and created an extra link I do want to be able to edit it.

[tatewise]

There are two distinct issues associated with the Show Media buttons.

1. Unambiguous Context Scenarios ~ should not inhibit options
   The Sources For pane Show Media button shows unambiguous context for every Media instance of Citation Media or Source Record Media depending on the radio toggle chosen.
   The Facts tab Show Media button shows unambiguous context for every Media instance of Fact Media as long as the two tick options are disabled.
   That includes multiple instances of the same Media record linked to the same item.
   They all allow the Link/Note text to be unambiguously edited for every Media instance.
   So why are any options inhibited, and why different options on Sources For pane versus Facts tab?
2. Ambiguous Context Scenarios ~ solved with radio toggles
   The Facts tab Show Media button has options to Include Citation Media and Include Source Record Media.
   If multiple instances of the same Media are linked to the Citation &/or Source Record only one gets shown.
   That is the 'additional wrinkle' with lack of context which currently justifies inhibiting all the options.
   The radio toggle buttons idea would solve that problem as long as Include Fact Media was one of the three states and multiple instances of the same Media are all shown as in 1. above.

Shall I pursue Calico Pie with case 1. above for an explanation of why the options are inhibited?
Maybe we are missing some context issue.

Whatever explanation is provided for the Show Media buttons, they have not applied the same criteria to the Media Property Box Links tab where every multiple instance is listed.