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Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 09:26
by Valkrider
Is there any way to change a witness to a marriage, for instance, to a relative of the bride / groom?

I have come across a couple of instances recently where some time after creating a marriage from a PR and recording the witness that further research has ascertained that the witness is in fact a sibling / parent of one or the other.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 10:33
by tatewise
Not quite sure what you are asking to change?

Each Marriage Fact Witness links to an Individual record.
Presumably, you have no problem linking that Individual record to be a sibling/parent of the bride/groom.
i.e. They become members of the family tree just like any other relative.

Their Role in the Marriage ceremony is still a Witness because they signed the Register.
So their Role should not need to be changed.

So what do you want to change and why?

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 10:44
by Valkrider
@Mike

Say John Smith gets married and one of the witnesses to his marriage is James Smith. At that moment I do not know what relations James is to John or even if he is a relative. Using AS I create the marriage entry and record James as 'A person not in file'. Some time later I find that James is John's younger brother. James does not exist as an entry in the Records window as he was only a witness to the marriage when I created the marriage entry. If I now add him as a sibling to John how do I correct the marriage witness entry to now make James John's sibling?

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 10:59
by tatewise
It rather depends on which AS method you have chosen for Witnesses with just names and not in file.

Let's assume you are using the FH Fact Witness Role method.
Then in the Marriage fact Witnesses dialogue select the name only entry and Delete it.
Now use the Add option and select the Individual record of James Smith with Role of Witness.

If you have chosen a different AS method then tell me which one and we can sort it out.
It is defined on the Further Info tab for Association and click Edit... link.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 11:27
by Valkrider
Thanks for the reply, yes it is the standard witness role.

I do not get a delete option on right click if I am selecting the right entry. See the attached.
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (30.36 KiB) Viewed 292 times

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 12:03
by tatewise
Via the All tab you just press the Delete key, and then right-click Marriage > Add Witness.

It is easier via the Facts tab in either Individual or Family Property Box.
Right-click Marriage fact and choose Witnesses or use the Cog menu > Witnesses.
There you can Delete, Edit, Add witnesses more easily.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 12:34
by mjashby
Colin,

If this is on your Mac Laptop then, for 'Delete' substitute 'fn+BackArrow' (bottom left+top right). [No 'Delete' key on Mac laptops or the more common Compact Keyboard].

Mervyn

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 12:52
by Valkrider
@Mervyn no this is on my iMac in a VM

@Mike

Sorry this isn't helping, the all tab is as per my screenshot from earlier.

Whose all tab do I use? I don't want to delete the whole marriage. What do I click delete on this is really not clear what you are suggesting that I do?The Cog wheel does not give me add witness. Sorry I am stumped with this.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:07
by tatewise
Sorry, I assumed you were more familiar with the Witnesses dialogue.

You are missing the important point in my earlier posting that "It is easier via the Facts tab..."
Don't use the All tab as that is too tricky.

You can use the Individual Property Box of William LEFEVRE and open the Facts tab.
Right-click his Marriage fact and select Witnesses.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:13
by Valkrider
The Facts tab for who?

I am sorry this is really not making sense.

What Witnesses dialogue? Some screenshots would help no doubt.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:17
by tatewise
The Facts tab of the person who has the Marriage Event.
John Smith in your original example or William LEFEVRE in your screenshot.

Witnesses.png
Witnesses.png (57.62 KiB) Viewed 259 times

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:20
by Valkrider
Thanks I think I have it sorted now. I haven't found this very logical may be my age ;)

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:41
by ColeValleyGirl
I knew there was a reason I've never used Witnesses :P and if FH7 as trailed includes the ability to link to a record from the text of a note, I suspect I will never need to...

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 13:50
by Jane
I don't have any problem with Witnesses, you can simply open the Witness dialog as shown with the right click or open it from the drop down icon at the bottom. I think the problem is if you have not put them in that way and used Ancestral Sources instead, you don't learn how to maintain them. In V7 you can double click on the Witness icon.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 15:52
by davidf
Valkrider wrote:
02 Dec 2019 13:20
Thanks I think I have it sorted now. I haven't found this very logical may be my age ;)
I think there is a conceptual problem with witnesses (which I still struggle with when trying to create new witness roles).

Say I have a fact Admission (such as admitted to a learned society such as the Institute of Engineering and Technology).

When X was admitted Y and Z were X's proposer and seconder (in FH: two witness roles; Y was the "proposer" and Z was the "seconder". X is the "principal" - which is useful to know if trying to customise or create new witness statements).

The temptation is to go to Y's property box and enter a "witness fact" and link to X. ("Y was a proposer to X's admission") This is conceptually wrong!

You create the Admission Fact in X's property box and then you add the witnesses to it. ("The proposer for X's admission was Y", or "X was proposed by Y"). You add the witnesses to X's fact (either by clicking on the gear-wheel icon in the tool-bar half way down the property box, or by right clicking on the fact as in MIke's screen shot above).
Screenshot from 2019-12-02 15-25-53.png
Witness Management Dialog
Screenshot from 2019-12-02 15-25-53.png (16.24 KiB) Viewed 227 times
When you click add, you are offered the opportunity to add an "Individual" (someone already in your project file) or a "Name Only" (for someone currently unknown). If adding an individual you get taken to a record selection dialog (so it helps before hand to know a bit about the individual so that you can select the right "John Smith" say!).
Valkrider wrote:
02 Dec 2019 09:26
Is there any way to change a witness to a marriage, for instance, to a relative of the bride / groom?
If you have entered someone as a "Name Only" and later you either, enter that person into your tree or, realise that they have been there all the time, the witness will not automatically sort itself out. You need to re-enter the witness as an Individual, and then once you are happy that you have matched the details correctly, you delete the Name Only witness. You do this most easily with the delete button on the Right Hand side of the Witness Management Dialog.
Screenshot from 2019-12-02 15-50-08.png
Completed Witness Addition
Screenshot from 2019-12-02 15-50-08.png (47.51 KiB) Viewed 227 times

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 16:14
by Valkrider
Thanks @David and everyone else. The only way I have used witnesses is as @Jane suggested in her post is as witnesses to events such as marriages and I have only used them when the witness has been created by Ancestral Sources. I had never seen that Witness dialogue before as I had no need for it. In some respects it would be better if individual records were created for witnesses, it may make it easier to associate them.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 16:23
by davidf
Valkrider wrote:
02 Dec 2019 16:14
...
In some respects it would be better if individual records were created for witnesses, it may make it easier to associate them.
Well someone might write a plug in to find all "Name Only" witnesses, present them as a selection box and then create Individual records for all those selected?

Not me though, LUA is an unknown skill to me!

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 17:11
by rfj1001
I tend to use Ancestral Sources for entering BMD, census, baptism and burial info from official certificates or their transcripts.

AS has the option of adding other roles to the event such as witness, best man, etc.. You then have the option of finding an existing person in your FH file, adding a new relative (including siblings), adding a new non related person or adding just a name to that role.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 17:19
by tatewise
So if you always ensure an Individual record exists for every witness (even if unrelated) and avoid the Name Only ~ Person not in file options, then AS will do as you request.

Regarding a Plugin I've already done the first step near the end of Witness reporting (11976) there is a List Name Only Witnesses Plugin.

Re: Change marriage witness to relative

Posted: 02 Dec 2019 20:30
by davidf
(Mike, you may choose to move this to another topic)

I often find myself (particularly in big projects) either:
  • Not realising that an individual already exists and creating a duplicate, or
  • Getting through some process to the Record Selection dialog and then discovering the person does not exist and having to back out.
It would be very useful if in the Individual Record Selection dialog, you had the option "new" (bit like in the Source Selection Dialog) - or in the case of witnesses to have the option to enter "Name Only".