* Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

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David Potter
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Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 09 Mar 2017 10:49

Hi Mike/All

I am ready for the next phase of 'clean up' activity with my FH database. I have now followed your (and others) advice about attaching evidence in the way of Citations to all Names and of course the associated Facts gathered for each Individual. These Citations are currently ordered by Citation Entry Date.

So if you are willing to coach/mentor further I would very much welcome any guidance you can offer on how to re-order once more these Citations in relative weight or surety. I'm thinking generally that a Birth record has more weight than a Marriage maybe and last of all the Death record when supporting a Birth fact. And in this order perhaps with Census records interspersed around these.

In straight forward talk how do you decide which Citation has a higher relative value than others If the Individual(s) concerned are who they should be?
Secondly where would you start - Would you order the Citations for the Name first or start with the Facts?

Again trying to adopt best practice and any advice most welcome. Many thanks in advance.

BR

David

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by tatewise » 09 Mar 2017 11:25

Hi David, I have moved this and the related Plug-In/Query to sort Citations based on Entry Date (14439) to the General Usage Forum, because neither are to do with Plugins.

I have started a new topic for this, as it is heading in a new direction.

Your thinking is generally correct that a Birth Certificate is best for a Birth Event and similarly for Marriage and Death.
The next best will usually be a GRO Birth Index and similarly for Marriage and Death.
The reasoning is that they are contemporaneous with the Event.

Anything else is secondary, because the details were recorded much later and often second hand.
Some Death records give Birth Date & Place, while other records usually only give Age and maybe Place.

How you organise Citations is largely down to personal preference.
The main purpose for putting the best Citations first is to assist with ongoing research.
Various tools such as Diagrams, Queries, and Plugins can help with research for missing records.
Usually they will only inspect the first Citation against each Fact otherwise it gets tricky to check all instances.
So if the first Citation is not the best, then the tools may suggest research that is not necessary.

The above discussion is focussed on post-1837 UK GRO records.
Prior to that mostly only Baptism, Marriage, and Burial UK church parish records exist, plus Wills, etc.
Often the actual Date of Birth or Death is not given and has to be approximated.
The parish record is thus the best Citation available for Birth & Baptism, and Death & Burial events.

Other countries add yet another dimension.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 09 Mar 2017 11:33

Thank you Mike

That was very much appreciated.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 14:37

Hi Mike

Following on from your welcome advice repeated in next paragraph...

Your thinking is generally correct that a Birth Certificate is best for a Birth Event and similarly for Marriage and Death.
The next best will usually be a GRO Birth Index and similarly for Marriage and Death.
The reasoning is that they are contemporaneous with the Event.

I'm wondering how best to record the GRO index? I can add the image of the GRO birth record index to the Birth event Source originally created by AS (which already contains the Birth Certificate Image) by using AS 'Add to Existing'. But how best to record the Text part? IE, Year XXXX, Qtr Y, District, Vol, Page?

The options appear to be:
1) Add this text to the Birth Fact Note field only, clearly the simplest approach
2) Add the text to the Source Note field, but this is then somewhat hidden
3) Add the text to the Citation Note field a) only for Citation Type BIRT or b) to all Citations Types for the Birth event, which then requires doing a Citation Where Used and manually input or Search and Replace to get the Text where it needs to be.

How best then to handle this given AS doesn't pass down Source Note Data when creating the Source Citations in FH (or at least I can't find a setting for this in the options and can understand why this might be).

As always - your best practice guidance is very much welcomed as I also want to adopt the most productive not necessarily the simplest method going forward.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by PeterR » 14 Mar 2017 15:49

I would say that the Birth Certificate and an entry from the GRO Birth Index are two separate and distinct Sources, even if they are for the same Event.

For some Individual Birth Events you may have a Birth Certificate, for others you may have only a Birth Index entry, and for others you may have both. I would just use AS to add another Source record, with its own media if appropriate.
Peter Richmond (researching Richmond, Bulman, Martin, Driscoll, Baxter, Hall, Dales, Tyrer)

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 16:06

Hi Mike

Um Thank You - not quite what I thought you would come back with :o . But I see the logic in that it's a separate Source at the end of the day. Assuming I had or could get both. Would you then go the same route with two separate sources? I was thinking that post 1837 in the days of Registration both documents are tightly related aren't they? But I guess the Birth certificate would come first followed by the Index.

But again as you say it is a separate Source.

Am I correct about the AS behaviour in that it doesn't cast the Source Note Data down to Citation Note level? Therefore I would need to place the Index key data (Year Q District etc) into the Reference ID field. Or should I take this one to the AS Forum?

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 16:25

Hi Mike

Just thinking how this should work if I used AS to create a new Source. Example: What would I select for Place details? The District, from the GRO Index or the real Place details from the Birth Cert? I ask because the Index obviously doesn't contain that level of detail and I always try not to embellish the info I have or don't have as the case may be.

And then there's the Source record Title/Heading, by default AS will label this a Birth and apply the usual data Place, Name , so only the Place and Date part of the Heading will look different from the related Birth Source based on the certificate.

Just looking for a starter for 10 - to get me going.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 16:32

I think I might have answered my own questions re how this would work in AS. Just noticed I'm already using it where I only have a GRO Index. But would still be interested to hear on any specific technique you use with AS.
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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 16:53

Hi Mike

This gets deeper and sorry to spam you - but I want to / need to get this right.

I just made a test in AS. Making a birth source entry without the Mother or Father is illegal if they are already defined, EG, from the Birth Certificate entry made previously also using AS. Therefore I have to enter the parents - which although I know who they are, they are often not mentioned in the Index record so am I not guilty of embellishing what information the Index has to offer?

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by johnmorrisoniom » 14 Mar 2017 17:00

They have to in the entry, but if you untick them, they do not get a source assigned

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 17:04

Hi John
Thanks
I tried that - and cleared/reset the parent names. AS still reports this as Invalid. I'll try again in case I missed something.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 17:08

After receiving warning messages about mother and father missing. I then get this message... I have unchecked every flag where a parent might be entered.

See screen shot
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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by johnmorrisoniom » 14 Mar 2017 17:41

No, you must leave the parents names in, just untick them and it will save , without assigning sources to the parents

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 14 Mar 2017 17:47

Ah - I see. Thank you John

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by tatewise » 15 Mar 2017 00:09

There is no absolutely right or wrong way to record such Sources.
BTW: All the intervening advice comes from Peter and John, not me!

It is true that the Birth Certificate is created on the registration date and later the GRO Index is created.
But as you have discovered it is more straightforward to capture them in one Source record.

I record the GRO Index reference in the AS Further Info > Ref ID that is mapped to the Source record Publication Info.
It can also be added to the Source record Title by adding {REF} to Title Template, but I do not do that.
The format I use is 1946 Q4 Chelmsford 4a 684 237 i.e. Year Quarter District Volume Page Entry
I also put a transcript of the GRO Index entry in the Source record Note.

The Text From Source holds the transcript of the Birth Certificate.

Both Birth Certificate and GRO Index images are added to the Media tab.

If you already have a Birth Certificate then it should be easy to find the GRO Index.
If starting from the GRO Index then I often wait until have bought the Birth Certificate.
Therefore, both can be captured via AS together.

If they are obtained separately, then I would enter the first via AS, but enter the second directly in FH since it only involves editing the one Source record and maybe adding some details to the parents.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 15 Mar 2017 08:35

Hi All

Firstly apologies and many thanks to Peter. I saw your post but somehow acknowledged Mike for it.

I have been using the approach of recording data into AS as you suggest. With you addition that I also attach the Mother's Maiden Name from the Birth Index (if available from that Index), and similarly the Spouse name for Marriage. Example 1985 Q1 Thanet 2a 123 Mother's Maiden Name Short into AS - REF ID field. This then is plain to see when it reaches Where Within Source in the Source Citation.

Yesterday I separated all GRO Indexes where they were bound together with the Birth Certificate in one Source into separate Sources. These two separate Sources also now make use of a separate Repository: GRO (Certificates) or GRO (Indexes). This was done for all BMD.

So going forward - I will adopt the rule to keep these two types of Sources separate. So another Best Practice approach introduced - Thanks to you guys for providing advice and insight as to how you do things.

I have moved the question re AS and Source Note to Citation Note mapping to the AS Forum.

Many Thanks.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by tatewise » 15 Mar 2017 10:04

You need to think about how to handle the multiple GRO Index entries for one BMD event.

For Marriage there is always at least two entries, one for husband and one for wife, but there may be more when either have double-barrelled surnames. e.g.

Code: Select all

Index 216: TATE, Bernard	 BRADSHAW-FULLER	Uxbridge 3a 244
Index 342: FULLER, Ethel M.B.		 	TATE	Uxbridge 3a 244
Index 105: BRADSHAW-FULLER, Ethel M.	TATE	Uxbridge 3a 244
Similarly for Birth and Death there may be more than one entry when there are double-barrelled surnames. e.g.

Code: Select all

Index 497: FULLER, Ethel M.  	  	   AYTON	Lambeth	1d 630
Index 156: BRADSHAW-FULLER, Ethel M. 	AYTON	Lambeth	1d 630
That is why I do not include names in the Ref ID but do record those entry details in the Source record Note.
I see the GRO Index purely as a means to an ends of obtaining the Certificate because it gives the full reference to the Volume and Page. I think of it like the index of a book, which you would not treat as a separate Source from the text of the book.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 15 Mar 2017 10:23

Hi Mike

Phew - that's not something I had not thought about. Although with 1000+ people so far I have not encountered Double-Barrelled Surnames.

I know about Marriages where of course there must be two Indexes one for each party. So for Marriages it would appear I should go to the length of attaching both Index images to that GRO Index Source and change the method for the REF ID/Where Within Source entry to keep to the pure Index data and avoid entering Names. Also placing any clear mention of Spouse into the Source Text as you suggest.

I'll modify the Birth GRO Index rule also to enter the Maiden Name into Source text, just in case research identifies double-barrel names going forward.

Question: Do you go as far as to copy the Source Note data into the Citation Note for each Cited use of the Source. Or do you avoid that step? I'm trying to make things as visual and in one place as possible without having to navigate away from the most popular areas of FH given the tools available. AS doesn't take care of that copy down to Citation level - by design I believe, hence my question on this now in AS Forum.

Thanks very much for pointing this out...

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by tatewise » 15 Mar 2017 11:31

Answer:
As a general rule my Citations are empty except for the Entry Date and Assessment filled in automatically by AS.
The reason is the whole concept of Method 1 is to keep ONE copy of all the information in one place i.e. the Source record.
Once you start copying (hated by database gurus) you must remember to update all copies if you find a change is needed.
With these BMD Certificate/Index (and similarly Census) records there will be many Citations so copies for me are just a pain.

Your objective "to make things as visual and in one place as possible" are contradictory as explained above.

Anyway, it is NOT clear to me what you are now recording in the Source record Note field that would need copying.

I think you are now proposing to have the Ref ID such as 1985 Q1 Thanet 2a 123 ... in the GRO Index Source Title.
In which case it is visible in every Citation already, so why copy it anywhere?

Have you really thought through the whole process using AS?
Essentially AS only handles one 'style' for capturing say Birth details.
It only has one Source Type and Image Title Template and Source Title Template setting for that capture.
So if you use AS to capture a Birth Certificate and GRO Birth Index separately, then those settings will probably need changing each time, and you have to remember to check them. Otherwise, you will end up with Birth Certificates having Source Type of GRO Birth Index or vice versa, and similarly for record title formats.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 15 Mar 2017 12:12

Hi Mike

Picking up Peter's point that the Certificate and Index are indeed separate Sources. And then thinking this could be handled with AS - which to a large extent it can. I just need to get the detail in what AS offers for both types of entry 'field by field' for each BMD case and establish these as Rules going forward.

Here's what I do now:
1) For Births - Two sources created by AS if possible - with a Title corresponding to the data available and appropriate - and choosing not to destroy the stronger Fact data where it already exists. IE, Existing fact > Born 15 Mar 1857 from a Cert as opposed to Born Q1 1857 from an Index
2) If Birth Cert - I enter the Certificate reference number into AS REF ID and have AS Map this to Source Publication info and onwards into Citation 'Where Within Source'. If an Index I enter Year, Qtr, District Vol and Page into the above, now without any names Names as per your recommendation earlier
3) I use the AS Auto Text to create appropriate Source Text, I do nothing more with this - leaving it only in the source record
4) I have been putting Research Data into the Source Note field as described further below, I leave this in the Source record

So in the attached screen shot you will see my two sons with a Birth Cert Source and a Birth Index Source - following Peter's recommendation.

The question re AS Source Notes and it not Mapping to Citation Note was generally in relation to research data - like the below... So sort of unrelated to what we have been discussing. Sorry for the confusion. I had a need to place the research data from TMG somewhere in FH. I have chosen the Source Note field to do this - but then wondered why it does not get cast down to Citation Level, just out of interest really and was concerned I have missed a setting somewhere in AS. Hence the question.

I now understand Source is Source. Citation should not contain more data than absolutely necessary for the reason you say Mike it is a nightmare to maintain. Better to jump to the Source record to view the additional data.

Birth 1866 Carnavon Mar 11B 493 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Carnavon Mar 11B 499 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Carnavon Jun 11B 558 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Carnavon Jun 11B 555 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Carnavon Jun 11B 525 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Carnavon Sep 11B 485 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1868 Jun Dolgelly 11b 469 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1868 Jun Bala 11b 463 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1867 Sept Bala 11b 431 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1868 Jun Machynlleth 11b 209 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth*** 1866 Sept Machynlleth 11b 189 - Matched fathers name Evan Roberts
Birth 1866 Sept Dolgelly 11b 429 - The father's forename was not Evan
Birth 1866 Mar Dolgelly 11b 443 - The father's forename was not Evan

If I could take you guys for a beer I surely would - I never received this level of support from TMG User group. I'm really grateful.
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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by tatewise » 15 Mar 2017 12:53

David, you have missed some key points about AS settings.

In AS check the Tools > Options > Birth settings and consider capturing 1) Birth Certificates and 2) GRO Birth Indexes.

Under Sources centre top :-
What Source Type do you want to have for 1) and 2) ?
What Citation Certainty (Assessment) do you want to have for 1) and 2) ?
What Citation Entry Date do you want to have for 1) and 2) ?

Check the Birth Facts and Death Facts settings required for 1) and 2) ?

Check the Birth Image Title Template required for 1) and 2) ?

Then in Tools > Options > Birth settings - method 1 :-

Check Birth Method 1 Title Templates (both Full and Short) required for 1) and 2) ?
(BTW: There is a typo here and top template should NOT say Short which I will report to Nick Walker.)

Check Record birth reference... settings required for 1) and 2) ?

Do those settings vary depending on whether 1) or 2) are captured first?

You can only have ONE set of settings at a time, and if they differ between 1) and 2) you will be constantly changing them, or forgetting and cursing. P.S. I am interested in how Peter copes with this and wonder if he does not use AS.

This whole scenario is repeated for Marriage and Death settings.

This is why I said for me it is much more straightforward to capture 1) and 2) together with just one set of settings.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 15 Mar 2017 13:45

Hi Mike

I would generally say my settings can apply to both types of entry - with the exceptions as follows:

I tend to temporarily change the certainty assessment when entering Indexes to Secondary Evidence, if I forget to do this I manually tweak each Citation. Your point about forgetting to make the change for Certainty Assessment is a good one.

As 'AS' recognises Quarter dates I enter the same GRO Index Date in the same format Qx YYYY for both the event date and registered date, otherwise it is the precise dates obtained from the certificate. Depending on if I already had the Certificate - I occasionally need to tidy up the Facts data.

Clearly Marriages are a little different as AS will over-write 'always' what it finds exists already and I create Index entries manually if the Marriage Cert has been entered previously - but I follow the same formatting and rules as if AS had done the job.

Apart from that - the settings appear to work okay for both types of entry.

Mike are you saying you combine both certificate and Index into one Source record? Because that is what I started with. I can put it all back again as I don't mind spending more time getting this right - I am even thinking of re-keying the whole thing again as now I have doubts about what I have done once again.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by PeterR » 15 Mar 2017 13:49

Sorry I wasn't clear earlier. Like many others, I believe, I use "Method 2" for BMD Index entries and record the Event-specific details in the FH Citation. In most cases this is the only Source I would have for a Birth (I certainly cannot afford to buy certificates for every event). In cases where I do have a Birth Certificate, I would use AS to add that as an additional Source for the Birth Event, obviously using "Method 1" with as much as possible recorded only in the Source Record, to which AS would also attach a Media Record linked to a scan of the certificate.
Peter Richmond (researching Richmond, Bulman, Martin, Driscoll, Baxter, Hall, Dales, Tyrer)

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by David Potter » 15 Mar 2017 14:07

Hi Peter

No problem at all. It's for sure a complex subject area - and perhaps I should not have rushed forward making changes.

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Re: Sorting Citations based on Surety Assessment

Post by PeterR » 15 Mar 2017 14:42

Hi David. In some cases I have two different birth certificates for the same person, issued on different dates and with different amounts of information (in several cases a "short-form" birth certificate issued long after the birth registration, e.g. when starting work). I am quite happy with multiple sources for the same event, each with its own media linked if available. And of course in some cases a Death Certificate (or just a Death Index entry) also acts as an additional (or possibly only) Source for a date of birth.
Peter Richmond (researching Richmond, Bulman, Martin, Driscoll, Baxter, Hall, Dales, Tyrer)

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