* Sources, Citations and Methods

[dbridge276]

Helen,
I’ll leave it at that, otherwise I’m in serious danger of confusing OP. Let’s let sleeping dogs lie, wagging tail or not

Less confused now having read these replies thanks.

I have to confess that I hadn't thought of all the various permutations that have been debated since my post yesterday.

And Mike Tait's suggestion of updating the other post with the two examples would be a good idea. IMHO.

[dbridge276]

I am wondering if the earlier illustrated explanations should become supplemental pages to the glossary:sources#sources_and_citations_-_how_to_use_them|> Sources and Citations - how to use them with one for Method 1 and another for Method 2?

I second the above.

[victor]

Hope I am not too late on making a comment on the census images
When I save the image I put in the census reference with, at the end, the head of household's name
So if there are two households on the same page I put the head of each household at the end of the census reference. It does mean having two copies of the same image. But with each family I put a red line round each family. That is putting them in a box.

Alternatively you can add the red lines round each family and save just one image. When using AS just input each family separately but use the same image each time.
Victor

[ColeValleyGirl]

You don't have to have two copies of the image, Victor. 2 source records can link to the same media record which link to the image.

And two media records can link to the same image.

[tatewise]

He will need two Media images and two Media records if adding a separate red outline around each household.

However, instead of the red outline, use the Link to Detail option in the Source record Media tab.
It works just like the Link to Face option in the Individual record Media tab.
That establishes a 'frame' around the household so only that part of the image is shown in Reports, etc.
It is similar to cropping, but without actually editing the Media image.
Then only one shared Media image and Media record are required.

I use that technique in all kinds of document to highlight a particular section, but in the context of the whole document.

[tatewise]

I have added glossary:method_1_source_splitters_mode|> Method 1 'source splitters' mode and glossary:method_2_source_lumpers_mode|> Method 2 'source lumpers' mode that are mentioned within glossary:sources|> Source Records and from how_to:index#recording_facts_and_sources|> Recording Facts and Sources and will eventually appear in the alphabetic_index|> Knowledge Base Index.

Please review and feedback any comments or suggestions.

@Gowermick:
To avoid any doubt, when talking about household members on different Census pages combined in one Source record, the only scenario that I consider appropriate is where the household members are all at one address and their entries span adjacent pages.
I am not talking about family members at different addresses on completely unrelated Census pages.
Nor am I talking about family members in institutions where the residents span multiple pages.

However, with the method of one Source per Census page, what is recorded in the Text From Source for my 1st scenario above where the page holds only a partial household?
If each page only has its own text transcribed, then:
1st page may not include the entire family.
2nd page has no Head of household for the relationships such as Wife, Son or Daughter.

Similar scenarios can apply to say a Passenger List where a list of relatives spans adjacent pages.

[Gowermick]

Mike,
For what it’s worth, rightly or wrongly, I rarely use text from source, and then only when it is a document or book, when I might refer to relevant page or chapter. Otherwise, I let the image speak for itself, I don’t see the need in duplicating what is already in the image. All relevant facts are entered for each individual, with the source being the reference to the census image.

If I did wish to enter anything, it would only make the source unique for that Individual, and couldn’t be used for anyone else. To my way of thinking, a census image is not a personal item and needs to able to be used as many times as necessary.

If there is anything specific about an individual in the census that I wish to highlight, then I simply add it as a note to the individual, but never to the citation.
e.g. 1881 Staying with married sister and her family

[tatewise]

That makes things a bit clearer.
However, I find that many document images are so difficult to read due to bad handwriting, reproduction, etc, that a transcript is essential, not just for me, but anyone else viewing the Project, especially in Reports where the image is often too small to be legible. Also the details in the image may not perfectly match the associated Individual records, so need further explanation.

BTW: How do you discover all the Individual records for the people listed in one Census household, i.e. with one Schedule number? Is it a combination of Census reference and Address field?

[Gowermick]

BTW: How do you discover all the Individual records for the people listed in one Census household, i.e. with one Schedule number? Is it a combination of Census reference and Address field?

Sorry, don't quite understand the question. Are you asking how I find the individual on the image?

If so, it's as you said, a combination of Address and Image Reference
It really is a case of pointing someone to the image and letting them find it with their own eyes - you can only lead people so far

[tatewise]

No, I am asking how you obtain a list of all the Individual records for the members of a household listed at a particular address in the Census, i.e. the Head, Wife, Son, Cousin, Lodger, etc, etc, who all took part in that Census event at that address. In the same way that a list of all the Individual records for the participants in a Marriage can be obtained by finding the links to the Marriage Source record, and would include the Bride, Groom, their Fathers, Witnesses, etc.

[Gowermick]

Mike,
I have never had the need for that, so haven’t tried looking! If I did have a need to see who was there at a particular census, I’d look at the image! Sometimes, automation hides the simplesst solution

What is wrong with looking for all uses of the census citation, Then pick the relevant people from that?

[tatewise]

By "looking for all uses of the census citation" I guess that finds all Individuals who appear on that Census page.
But what about the rest of the household that may be on the previous or the next Census page?

It is useful to discover which family members are away from the household for that Census, or other household members who later turn out to be relatives, in the same Marriage Witnesses sometimes do.

Certainly looking at the image goes part of the way, but does not actually locate the Individual records, which can be tricky with popular names.

[Gowermick]

Mike,
With respect, you seem to be seeing problems that aren’t there! When I find a family on a census, I can see immediately who isn’t there, and if necessary, look for them (School, Military, Married, Died etc).

Why would I need to produce a list later? What purpose does it serve, to produce a list to show they had a lodger, cousin etc staying with them in a particular year. All I’m interested in is knowing which members of the family aren’t accounted for, which I already know!

[tatewise]

OK, let's agree to disagree, but plenty of users posting here regularly ask how to find all the Individuals who are members of one Census household, and ask if using Census Fact Witnesses is a good way to achieve that.

[Gowermick]

I agree. It just goes to show that everyone has a different approach.

[tatewise]

Can everyone involved in this discussion thread please checkout and feedback comments on the new articles:
glossary:method_1_source_splitters_mode|> Method 1 'source splitters' mode
glossary:method_2_source_lumpers_mode|> Method 2 'source lumpers' mode

[dbridge276]

Can everyone involved in this discussion thread please checkout and feedback comments on the new articles:
glossary:method_1_source_splitters_mode|> Method 1 'source splitters' mode
glossary:method_2_source_lumpers_mode|> Method 2 'source lumpers' mode

Mike (tatewise),

Great additional info these two new items.
I'm glad I asked the questions that prompted them.

In Method 1 Variants , paragraph 1 can I suggest the last sentence becomes a paragraph of its own, this would bring some extra clarity as that first paragraph is fairly long and I almost missed the last sentence, mainly due to my scan reading technique, as a separate paragraph it will stand out better.

Additionally you state in method 2 "click big blue arrow go to source record" I notice there are two big blue arrows,
One points up (LHS of Image) the other points right (RHS image), it could be worth just adding (up arrow or right arrow) to differentiate them.

[tatewise]

I have made those changes, although the blue arrow does not strictly need clarifying as only one has the Go To Source Record tooltip when the cursor hovers over it.

[dbridge276]

I have made those changes, although the blue arrow does not strictly need clarifying as only one has the Go To Source Record tooltip when the cursor hovers over it.

Thanks Mike (Tatewise),

I understand where you are coming from.

However I was a digital coach in my old job and I was amazed how many times I would have to repeat what to me and others was a simple function or icon to people.

It was only when someone commented that they were there to use a product not learn a product (msoffice in this case) that it dawned on me that people come in all levels of understanding, even those with extensive knowledge often don't know some simple basics.

Hence I found it's better to lead the horse to the water with explicit directions that avoid any misunderstandings.
e.g. not everyone waits for the pop up on hovering, they see the first large blue button and assume that's it, defining one is looking for the right (or left, or up) facing big blue arrow just makes it clearer for the uninitiated.

[dbridge276]

Mike (Tatewise)

One other observation.

It might be a good idea to add the two new links Into the main thread links, at bottom of this link
https://www.fhug.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?i ... o_use_them

Instead of having to read through to the second page of this thread to get to these helpful posts.

Almost like a quick start guide and then come back to this posts detail when seeking more info & understanding.

[tatewise]

I understand what you are saying, but I consider the Quick Start Guide is how_to:key_features_for_newcomers|> Key Features for Newcomers where under Sources Methods 1 & 2 there are direct links.
Also in the main FH Beginners Guide there are direct links in how_to:index#recording_facts_and_sources|> Recording Facts and Sources, and a Search for Method finds them both.
After the [kb]|[/kb] is next refreshed, they will also appear in the alphabetic_index|> Knowledge Base Index.

[tatewise]

@dbridge276 ~ Dave, you have Reported posting Huge source citation list (7392), but that is not really what Reporting is intended for.
You ask where the Option for Combine Identical Citations for Same Source is to be found.
It is on the Report > Options > Sources tab, and is ticked by default.

[dbridge276]

@tatewise

Thanks mike, yes I realise reporting wasn't intended for that purpose,
but as the other thread was IIRC locked I didn't see another way to ask a question about the previous posts to qualify things.

Maybe your reply above should be in the locked thread, it may help others?

[tatewise]

I have edited that 12 year old thread to make the location of the Option clearer.

Why was that thread of interest to you?

You can always cross-refer to such old threads by starting a new one and link back to it as I did earlier.

[dbridge276]

Mike
It was of interest as many of my earlier entries have zero, little or inappropriate sources against them.
Making it difficult for me when I need to cross check something.

As I am now retired and have more time to devote to my research I have decided to review a lot more of this forum to see if there are ways to "improve" by own research tree.

I am sure I am not alone in saying that in the early days I was more concerned about getting the names to build the tree rather than documenting where I got the info from.

I only ever knew 1 of my 4 grandparents as the other 3 had died before I was even born.
By contrast my own children knew on their maternal line both grandparents and great-grandparents, it makes one realise what one has missed out on.

I have documented many sources over the years, but reading just some the info on this forum and using ancestral sources more in the last year I realise now that a lot of my earlier work could benefit from better source & citation info and that my own logic may have been flawed.

I would like to think I am going to be around for some years yet, but when I'm not, documenting good source info will hopefully help others. My legacy so to speak.